At What Point?

[domer76]

That presupposes that the disciples had anything to do with the Gospels. But even so; it is easier to imagine people making up a story like that than all the machinations that would make it a literal truth.

Knowing that people all the time make stuff up (just look at many religions) it is easier to assume that for me than a "just so" story that would make sense of the events as written.

There are people who believe the story of Smith and the Golden Tablets that Moroni showed him even though it is manifestly a made up story. Their faith is extremely strong. I see no reason why a similar made up story wouldn't carry weight with believers in an early sect.

Not only are there believers in the tablets and Moroni, Smith had sworn statements from people who said they witnessed it. Sounds a lot like the Resurrection witnesses.

 

[IBDaMann]

When one hears voices in their head, it’s called schizophrenia. When it’s God, is it Holy Schizophrenia?

Each individual needs to ascertain for himself whether his perceptions are real or illusory.

Does your god put qualifiers on who he answers or not?

I don't have one.

Sounds like playing favorites to me.

You need to talk to guno about that. I believe that it is guno's perception that he is one of God's chosen children, i.e. a favorite of favorites. You should ask him about this.

That’s a human characteristic, isn’t it?

It might be a divine characteristic that is shared by humans that are made in God's image, yes?

Not something an all-powerful, benevolent god would do.

How many all-powerful, benevolent gods do you know on a first-name basis?

 

[Cypress]

That presupposes that the disciples had anything to do with the Gospels. But even so; it is easier to imagine people making up a story like that than all the machinations that would make it a literal truth.

Knowing that people all the time make stuff up (just look at many religions) it is easier to assume that for me than a "just so" story that would make sense of the events as written.

There are people who believe the story of Smith and the Golden Tablets that Moroni showed him even though it is manifestly a made up story. Their faith is extremely strong. I see no reason why a similar made up story wouldn't carry weight with believers in an early sect.

I didn't say the disciples wrote the gospels.

I said some of them were still alive when the earliest Christian writers were active.

The Resurrection of Jesus is attested to by multiple independent sources, and the living disciples would have been aware of the oral and written stories circulating about the events of the crucification. Jesus' brother James, and Peter were supposedly in direct contact with Paul who was openly teaching about the resurrection.

The Resurrection either requires a coordinated conspiracy theory by multiple individuals.

Or it requires a medically rational and feasibly possible explanation that fits the details written about in the gospels, without resorting to miracles or conspiracy theories.

Absent any direct evidence of a coordinated conspiracy theory, my null hypothesis is that there is a rational physical explanation for the resurrection

That's my theory, and I admit it's just an educated guess.



Edit to add: magical Mormon glasses are a fantasy with no basis in human experience.

Mortally injured people being mistaken for dead does happen, and is part of human experience. Before modern medical technology, people would sometimes be buried with a hand bell in the coffin they could ring if they recoverd from a deep comatose state

 

[IBDaMann]

The Resurrection either requires a coordinated conspiracy theory by multiple individuals.

Or it requires a medically rational and feasibly possible explanation that fits the details written about in the gospels, without resorting to miracles or conspiracy theories.

Why do you believe that humans don't ever conspire?

Millions of people conspire every day regarding something major. All political planning is conspiracy. Humans have conspired since there have been humans.

Yet you reject the notion. Silly.

 

[Cypress]

Why do you believe that humans don't ever conspire?

Millions of people conspire every day regarding something major. All political planning is conspiracy. Humans have conspired since there have been humans.

Yet you reject the notion. Silly.

Coordinated conspiracies between multiple people are hard to contain and conceal for decades.

The fact that militant atheists keep complaining about the inconsistencies and contradictions between the various Gospels just proves there wasn't a sophisticated and coordinated conspiracy. Otherwise they would have gotten their stories straight.

My theory is the only one that rationally fits the resurrection story without relying on miracles or conspiracies.

 

[IBDaMann]

Coordinated conspiracies between multiple people are hard to contain and conceal for decades.

Sure, but everyone is completely oblivious to all of the successful attempts. By the way, Intelligence communities are awash in such successful conspiracies.

Also, there are many examples of time-sensitive conspiracies that we can all observe upon the operations being sprung or after-the-fact, e.g. hostile takeovers, stolen elections, crypto rug-pulls, surprise birthday parties, etc ...

In a world of competition, conspiracies are the norm. Claims of conspiracy are to be considered first, not summarily dismissed, and must be evaluated on an individual basis. If you simply dismiss the notion that humans conspire, it is a fallacy and is usually indicative of someone who cannot support his argument.

The fact that militant atheists keep complaining about the inconsistencies and contradictions between the various Gospels

The fact that you don't even know what an atheist is chops your argument off at the knees.

My theory is the only one that rationally fits the resurrection story without relying on miracles or conspiracies.

... but you admit to rejecting the notion that humans conspire, and that gets your argument discarded by any rational audience who doesn't have that belief a priori.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't know what their doctrine is in Pentecostal and Southern Baptist churches, but walking on water is allegorical in other major Christian traditions.

We have to ask Jewish people about the Noah story, because that comes from the Torah.

The Resurrection seems medically impossible.

Because of the Sabbath and Passover, he was taken down early. It’s possible he survived the nailing and the stab in the side with a spear although I doubt he’d have been walking around much for six months. Everyone thought he died since he didn’t respond to the stab so if he turned up alive, even sitting on a litter, that would be a “miracle”. Oral stories passed around for 50 years would account for both the discrepancies and the growth of the legend.

 

[Cypress]

Because of the Sabbath and Passover, he was taken down early. It’s possible he survived the nailing and the stab in the side with a spear although I doubt he’d have been walking around much for six months. Everyone thought he died since he didn’t respond to the stab so if he turned up alive, even sitting on a litter, that would be a “miracle”. Oral stories passed around for 50 years would account for both the discrepancies and the growth of the legend.

Good points.

If Jesus had a NDE, it might have even seemed to him that he had been resurrected.

"Being mistaken for dead was indeed a risk during the Middle Ages. People were occasionally pronounced dead, then buried, only to wake up later in their coffins. Such events may have contributed to legends of vampirism, as the sound of the unfortunate souls attempting to escape their coffins led people to assume it was the dead rising from their graves."

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The fact that you don't even know what an atheist is chops your argument off at the knees.

Cypress knows what an atheist is, Sybil. Besides, you’re a liar by virtue of your “friends” as socks.
I never trust liars. GFY

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Good points.

If Jesus had a NDE, it might have even seemed to him that he had been resurrected.

"Being mistaken for dead was indeed a risk during the Middle Ages. People were occasionally pronounced dead, then buried, only to wake up later in their coffins. Such events may have contributed to legends of vampirism, as the sound of the unfortunate souls attempting to escape their coffins led people to assume it was the dead rising from their graves."

All he had to say was something like “If was God that saved me” and the story would grow from there.

This is one reason why I like Matthew so much over the other Gospels; because it’s mainly Jesus quotes. John puts the most religious spin on it which fits since it was written last. Mark was written first, then Matthew and Luke.

Gospel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Dutch Uncle]

So, you know how someone can walk on water. Please explain.

It’s important to know where the water-covered sandbar or jetty was located. To the people onshore, it would look like he was walking on water.

Do you really believe the stories about all historical figures or do you just disbelieve them all because you don’t even believe in yourself, Ms. BP? Some other explanation for your behavior?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

No dear, it's anyone who acts smug and tears down instead of asking questions that are biased and has gears to grind.

Agreed 100%. It’s a mirror image of MAGAt behavior. Same tactics with an opposite viewpoint to the max.

Notice that, like MAGAts, Ms. BP ignores me. Why? Because I don’t cater to bullshit.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Two questions if I may:

Is there at least one GOD? (By "...at least one GOD" I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.)

If there is (are)...what limitations on what IT (they) can do are absolutely necessary?

By the word “God” do you mean an all powerful force, an entity we are unable to fathom or do you mean an old man on a golden throne surrounded by all the “good” souls signing Hosannas forever?

I believe in the former, that the Universe was designed to be orderly and have strict rules governing it. The one and only variable is Life. Life changes the orderly. Beavers dams rivers that might otherwise follow physics and carve a canyon through erosion. Mankind pollutes the atmosphere of our own planet and is a primary driver of Global Warming which could change the planet so much that it kills off most of higher lifeforms, taking all humans, and their civilizations, with it. However, even if we nuked the entire planet 7 times over, life would still exist in some form since, as our one and only example often proves, once started, Life is very tenacious.

Let’s be honest; if “God” wanted us to know the Bible by heart, “he” would have just imprinted it on our DNA like most animals know how to fuck. “He” didn’t. Why? IMO, it’s because giving away all the answers teaches us nothing and prevents us from learning on our own. By Nature (meaning God’s rules for Universe), the brightest of us can push our knowledge forward. The dumbasses try to drag that down through ignorance, or adherence to dogma.

Note the lessons and caveats in the link below.

Religiosity and intelligence - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

… all scores from intelligence tests are only estimates of intelligence, because one cannot achieve concrete measurements of intelligence (as one would of mass or distance) due to the concept’s abstract nature.[2] Religiosity is also complex, in that it involves wide variations of interactions of religious beliefs, practices, behaviors, and affiliations, across a diverse array of cultures….


….A global study on educational attainment found that Jews, Christians, religiously unaffiliated persons, and Buddhists have, on average, higher levels of education than the global average.[15] Numerous factors affect both educational attainment and religiosity…..

…The term religiosity refers to degrees of religious behaviour, belief, or spirituality. The measurement of religiosity is hampered by the difficulties involved in defining what is meant by the term….For instance, out of Americans who are not religious and not seeking religion, 68% believe in God, 12% are atheists, and 17% are agnostics; as for self-identification of religiosity, 18% consider themselves religious, 37% consider themselves spiritual but not religious, and 42% consider themselves neither spiritual nor religious, while 21% pray every day and 24% pray once a month.[23][24][25] Global studies on religion also show diversity….

….Religion and belief in gods are not necessarily synonymous since nontheistic religions exist including within traditions like Hinduism and Christianity. According to anthropologist Jack David Eller, "atheism is quite a common position, even within religion" and that "surprisingly, atheism is not the opposite or lack, let alone the enemy, of religion but is the most common form of religion." <—-Irony. I love Irony

 

[Ross Dolan]

By the word “God” do you mean an all powerful force, an entity we are unable to fathom or do you mean an old man on a golden throne surrounded by all the “good” souls signing Hosannas forever?

When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

When I use the word "GOD or gods" here, I mean "The entity (or entities) responsible for the creation of what we humans call 'the physical universe'...IF SUCH AN ENTITY OR ENTITIES ACTUALLY EXIST.

I'll start by saying that although I'm not a Christian, I'm also not an atheist.

I've always wondered what it is about us humans that sparks most of us to believe in a creator or god(s), in some being(s) responsible for the existence of both us and of the Universe. Even if we don't believe in a soul or an afterlife of some sort, still the suspicion persists that all of this couldn't have just happened. Why?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

So, at what point do we tell our children that there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, or that babies don’t come from storks?

Where do we start providing them with critical thinking skills where they can begin to separate fact from fiction?

That people really can’t walk on water, that one boat can’t fit all animals, that rainbows are from the refraction of light, that people aren’t resurrected?

Where do schools draw the line on perpetuating myths without being at risk for offending someone’s theology?

when you're ready to teach them that morality actually matters, on an objective basis.

morality is rational. it cultivates a hight trust, high functioning society.

of course, we have to convince war profiteer psychotics first.

so we can't dispense with lies until you decide to join the good fight for the right reasons.

how do you want to feel?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I'll start by saying that although I'm not a Christian, I'm also not an atheist.

I've always wondered what it is about us humans that sparks most of us to believe in a creator or god(s), in some being(s) responsible for the existence of both us and of the Universe. Even if we don't believe in a soul or an afterlife of some sort, still the suspicion persists that all of this couldn't have just happened. Why?

of course the important part of the religion is the morality It imparts, and the functionality of those morals in achieving human thriving.

all movies are better with special effects, and overarching narratives, but the core of drama is illustrating how humans deal with their problems in conjunction with one another.

conflict in dialogue.

like us here, we're the Titans.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

NOW playing in theatres near you..

The THree Stooges in

Noahide Nincompoops.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I'll start by saying that although I'm not a Christian, I'm also not an atheist.

Me, too.

I've always wondered what it is about us humans that sparks most of us to believe in a creator or god(s), in some being(s) responsible for the existence of both us and of the Universe. Even if we don't believe in a soul or an afterlife of some sort, still the suspicion persists that all of this couldn't have just happened. Why?

Beats me. To me it could have "just happened."

But, there might be a God or gods involved. I just acknowledge that I do not know.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I'll start by saying that although I'm not a Christian, I'm also not an atheist.

I've always wondered what it is about us humans that sparks most of us to believe in a creator or god(s), in some being(s) responsible for the existence of both us and of the Universe. Even if we don't believe in a soul or an afterlife of some sort, still the suspicion persists that all of this couldn't have just happened. Why?

I'm a recovered Christian [circa age 13] and an atheist.

I also believe that this all could have (and did) just happen.

If the universe is indeed infinite, every that's physically possible to exist probably exists an infinite number of times.