You're right, there could be no ultimate meaning or purpose, and it might be that there is nothing but the physical and material
Atheist versus former atheist debate
- Thread starter Cypress
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PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
I can think of many things obvious in Western civilization which are clearly antithetical to Christian teachings........
ThatOwlWoman
Leftist Vermin
It's always seemed odd to me that no one has ever been able to report on the existence or qualities of an afterlife.* What is the whole point of heaven, hell, etc. if their existence can't be verified? Personally I believe that it's our own ego that cannot accept that this is all that there is and when you die that's it. Evolution engineered us to survive; the belief in survival after death might be part of that, eh?
* The only exception to this that I can think of are the accounts of near-death experiences (NDEs).
We'd have to get a religious person to defend the reality of a law-giver; I was explaining to Nifty my understanding of the religious perspective.
Yes, there is an evolution in human values. From a primordial state of human consciousness to a higher and more evolved state of moral conscience.
The interesting question to me why? A lot of our evolution in values do not readily have explanations in Darwinian principles. laws or biology, or have equivalents in the animal kingdom.
If moral evolution really was just subject to whim and subjective opinion, why does it seem to evolve in only one direction in the long term? That is to say, towards more sophisticated and egalitarian concepts of moral truth? If whim and subjective opinion were really the driving factor behind the evolution in human values, will we see a long-term return to child labor, chattel slavery, feudalism at some point?
It seems to me humans have something etched onto their conscience that can be appealed to through either reason or emotion, at least over the long term. And it doesn't always have a readily available explanation in Darwinian principles of biology
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Heaven and Hell are ancient concepts of post-mortem existence. I strongly doubt people are condemned to spend eternity sitting around a golden throne singing Hosannas. As some jokes often say, Hell sounds like more fun. LOL
I also doubt we retain our individuality in an afterlife. Such a transcendence would likely include growth. The next stage of growth, IMO, is a unified mind.
The math part quickly exceeds my expertise, but since Space-Time began with the Big Bang and time is a fourth dimension, it fits that there could be additional dimensions within the physical confines of our Universe. Whether any of those laws exist beyond our Universe is unknown, but I'm inclined to doubt it.
I personally don't have any proof of an afterlife. I have never had a NDE.
But I also think our souped-up chimpanzee brains do not have access to all truth and all reality. We might be living in a multiverse, or in a three-dimensional cosmos embedded in a higher dimensional hyperspace, and I have no way to prove it. I am willing to accept the limitations placed on our cognitive powers.
If I had to place a wager, I would bet there isn't a heaven in the sense that Dante Allegheri wrote about it or as seen in numerous movies or TV shows.
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The New Testament and the teachings of authentic Christianity have permeated western civilization for 2000 years, even when we don't live up to them.
Even the great atheist Donald Trump cynically created a fake charity because he was aware there is a longstanding social expectation to be charitable with your wealth and to help those less fortunate.
I think hope is a powerful aspiration for most humans.
A strictly physical, reductionist, and materialistic existence with no higher purpose or ultimate meaning isn't that appealing to a considerable number of people.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Which goes to the ancient "Why are we here?" question. Life, as Buddha noted, is suffering. https://www.learnreligions.com/life-is-suffering-what-does-that-mean-450094
If this existence is all there is and this existence is simply suffering, then what's the point? Why deliberately torture ourselves? Why not answer Albert Camus's famous philosophical question and take the easy way out?* If everyone knew there was an afterlife, wouldn't the human race become extinct almost overnight? Especially those suffering from starvation, war, disease and slavery?
One old theory, updated to the 21st century, is that this is all a game, a simulation, where we are little pieces of "God" participating as avatars for entertainment purposes for whatever reason including the idea that "Eternity is boring".
Since the answer to the question of an afterlife remains unanswered, we have a choice; blow our brains out to end the pain or play the game. I'm willing to play the game to the end.....or until it's clear my part in it is unwinnable.
*Aside from the chance of executing an innocent person, a good secondary reason to be against the Death Penalty. Death is easy, living is hard.
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NiftyNiblick
1960s Chick Magnet
What's a multiverse?
You don't recognize "universe" as being all-inclusive?
To me, the word means "everything," and meaning everything, it has to be infinite.
It's not scientific or philosophical theory in my case;
just my understanding of the vocabulary meaning.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
If our existence is fun, then of course we should stick around. For those suffering, such as those retired people who lost everything in Helene and face a painful, uncertain existence, why not just take a handful of fentanyl and take the Big Sleep?
In fact, should we have Suicide Centers to assist in both easing their pain and paid for by turning them into fertilizer or Soylent Green crackers for those poor kids starving in Africa?
ThatOwlWoman
Leftist Vermin
True. Yet one can help others by various means -- volunteerism, donating money or time or material things, even simply being kind and opening a door for someone or holding an elevator -- without expectation of a future heavenly reward. we do these things because it benefits others, it benefits our community, and it makes us feel good that we could help someone else. In other words, having a religious faith isn't necessary to be an ethical, good human being.
That's a good point. If some god showed up to provide scientific proof there is an afterlife, we wouldn't be able to handle the tidal wave of suicides
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Why bother? They're going to die anyway. Why not just send them fentanyl? It's lighter, cheaper and we seem to have plenty of it.
Seriously. What's the point? Just to prolong their suffering for a few more years?
Albert Camus on suicide, absurdity, and the meaning of life
Albert Camus was a Franco-Algerian philosopher with some great insights on the absurdity of life and how to navigate it.
bigthink.com
ThatOwlWoman
Leftist Vermin
Absolutely.
NiftyNiblick
1960s Chick Magnet
What sounds terrifying to me is the threat of eternal immortality.
If I believed in it, it would keep me up nights.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Exactly.
W00t! Here I come, Lord! BLAMM!
Agree, plenty of people think virtue is its own reward, even if our lives are ephemeral and fleeting.
Right, attending a religious service isn't necessary to be a decent person. As I said in an earlier post, there is something etched onto the human conscience which can be appealed to by reason and persuasion in a way that Darwinian biology can't really explain. We are capable as a species of evolving from a primordial consciousness to an advanced moral conscience.
I really don't know anything about the etymology of the word universe to say anything intelligent about what the word strictly is supposed to mean.
The quarks and electrons in my body are already going to last forever.
I find it hard to understand that the neurological consciousness of a Homo Sapien would last forever, unless it evolved or transcended into something different.