Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged (Movie)

John Adams couldn't figure out why the French loved him so. Especially since after a while, as Adams' developed his French language a bit, he realized that Ben really didn't speak it all that well, which astonished him. Ben was so good at feigning understanding that no one else caught on. :cof1:

Actually no one ever liked John Adams.....it was his little spinner of a wife they loved.
 
Abigail was certainly a crucial part of the John Adams success story.

She certainly was. He was the revolutionary and the man of ideas and he abounded with ceaseless energy. She was the pragmatist with the keen political acumen and she was a strong moderating force on Adams. In her younger days she played a key role for him in helping him to win others over to supporting his ideas by her ability to charm and disarm them.
 
Here's the problems I have with Ayn Rand, the darling of the libertarian movement, and the cult of personality surrounding her major works (i.e. objectivism).

Now don't get me wrong. There is much to be appreciated about Rands work. It is the general acceptance of the tenets of her ideas as being "true" with out critically evaluating and testing those ideas by those who espouse objectivism which bothers me. I think many readers of Rand are quite young (high school and/or college age) when first introduced to her works and it is often their first exposure to the world of "ideas" and thus has a profound impact on them but are they prepared to apply critical thoughts to those ideas?

Rand and her supporters have been guilty of what I consider intellectual inbreeding. They apply free market ideology to her ideas in a way that is not reasonable and therefore not objective. Rand and her supporters viewed her ideas as private intellectual property and due all protections there from. The problem with this is that these protections are legal protections to protect the individuals ownership rights in trade and commercial usage. The fact that Rand used this notion of intellectual property to discount others who examined and critically evaluated her ideas was at best intellectually lazy and at worst intellectual cowardice. Property rights are not nor never intended to prevent others evaluating, testing or using the ideas or products of others. They are intended to protect the owners of property from others who would profit from their property with out due compensation being rendered to the owner of said property. It is the contention of Rand's supporters (e.g. Leonard Peitkoff) that philosophies like "objectivism" are closed systems in which it's fundamental principles and consequences in all branches are immutable and laid down for all time by the author. Well, all I can say is that anyone with a solid science background will tell you is that this is just plain nuts. To paraphrase a certain philosopher, if you find a position contradictory, examine the premises that position is built upon as at least one of them will be wrong. The contradiction here is that no system of thought is immutable nor can it be free from the free exercise of observing the implications of those thoughts and ideas so as to observe, in reality, the truth (or lack there of) of these idea. It is this lack of critical thinking towards Randian philosophy that I find alarming.

So the questions for me about Ayn Rand is was she the first of the modern self help gurus, with pulp fiction sensibilities, that profoundly euphemized "Greed as good" for the terminally self centered or was she the last of the great 19th century intellectuals who produced a system of thought and ideas, that modern readers can appreciate, about the nature of freedom?

My conclusion may be a metaphysical cop out but objectively and in reality, she was both.
 
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Here's the problems I have with Ayn Rand, the darling of the libertarian movement, and the cult of personality surrounding her major works (i.e. objectivism).

Now don't get me wrong. There is much to be appreciated about Rands work. It is the general acceptance of the tenets of her ideas as being "true" with out critically evaluating and testing those ideas by those who espouse objectivism which bothers me. I think many readers of Rand are quite young (high school and/or college age) when first introduced to her works and it is often their first exposure to the world of "ideas" and thus has a profound impact on them but are they prepared to apply critical thoughts to those ideas?

Rand and her supporters have been guilty of what I consider intellectual inbreeding. They apply free market ideology to her ideas in a way that is not reasonable and therefore not objective. Rand and her supporters viewed her ideas as private intellectual property and due all protections there from. The problem with this is that these protections are legal protections to protect the individuals ownership rights in trade and commercial usage. The fact that Rand used this notion of intellectual property to discount others who examined and critically evaluated her ideas was at best intellectually lazy and at worst intellectual cowardice. Property rights are not nor never intended to prevent others evaluating, testing or using the ideas or products of others. They are intended to protect the owners of property from others who would profit from their property with out due compensation being rendered to the owner of said property. It is the contention of Rand's supporters (e.g. Leonard Peitkoff) that philosophies like "objectivism" are closed systems in which it's fundamental principles and consequences in all branches are immutable and laid down for all time by the author. Well, all I can say is that anyone with a solid science background will tell you is that this is just plain nuts. To paraphrase a certain philosopher, if you find a position contradictory, examine the premises that position is built upon as at least one of them will be wrong. The contradiction here is that no system of thought is immutable nor can it be free from the free exercise of observing the implications of those thoughts and ideas so as to observe, in reality, the truth (or lack there of) of these idea. It is this lack of critical thinking towards Randian philosophy that I find alarming.

So the questions for me about Ayn Rand is was she the first of the modern self help gurus, with pulp fiction sensibilities, that profoundly euphemized "Greed as good" for the terminally self centered or was she the last of the great 19th century intellectuals who produced a system of thought and ideas, that modern readers can appreciate, about the nature of freedom?

My conclusion may be a metaphysical cop out but objectively and in reality, she was both.

Good post, and re: the comments of your last paragraph about the system of thought and ideas, etc. I have a hard time taking the ideas of a novelist, no matter how intriguing they are, as a blueprint for how society should be run. We've got almost 250 years of history and laws behind us that made this nation what it is. Rand, IMO, condenses her theories into bullet points. Maybe this would work if she was starting a commune but I think it's unrealistic to believe they can be applied to the world today, at least as an entire theory.

Heck, if I were to pick a novelist with ideas about changing society at least it would be somebody more uplifting.
 
A dystopia comes about when proper ideas are discarded or left wanting. Rand wasn't saying the dystopia was good, she was saying this could happen. Same with Huxley, Oswald, and numerous other authors, including Lois Lowry's The Giver.
 
I'd partially agree with Motts post. I've never read that much of Rands work so I cannot say for sure.
 
Yet we do not. Instead the left seems to measure it by how much we must give, they tell another group that they are "evil" for wanting to do it differently and rather than give fish, to teach to fish...

Most of what we give, we give to the elderly that can't work anyway. The Republicans aren't proposing any sort of job training programs, so I don't see what you are talking about. Ignoring and pretending they don't exist /= training.
 
Most of what we give, we give to the elderly that can't work anyway. The Republicans aren't proposing any sort of job training programs, so I don't see what you are talking about. Ignoring and pretending they don't exist /= training.
Retraining the elderly in the skills that are needed today doesn't help much. They essentially have to compete with the youth of today, who have the same skill set, generally much more familiarity with it, and will likely be around longer for a business operation to make use of hiring them.
 
Retraining the elderly in the skills that are needed today doesn't help much. They essentially have to compete with the youth of today, who have the same skill set, generally much more familiarity with it, and will likely be around longer for a business operation to make use of hiring them.

Just remember, youthful skill, energy and talent is no match for experience, wisdom and treachery!
 
I'd partially agree with Motts post. I've never read that much of Rands work so I cannot say for sure.

By all means read her works. She communicates about as many ideas as Tom Paine does in "Common Sense"....it just takes her a thousand pages longer in Atlas Shrugged. It's a dry read though many of her ideas make sense but you'll be making a big mistake if you accept those, at face value, as being true. For many the trap in reading her is that her ideas reinforce ideas and beliefs that the reader all ready holds. The trap being not to critically examine those ideas. As with any major system of ideas Rand is neither completely right or completely wrong.
 
...in a country founded BY liberals and being destroyed BY conservatives...
How can anyone be so retarded as to say that?

Which contemporary political movement aims to protect the Constitution as the Founders wrote and interpreted it, and which contemporary political movement claims it is a "living, breathing document" and usurps it at every opportunity?
 
Which contemporary political movement aims to protect the Constitution as the Founders wrote and interpreted it

Do you think that the founders would agree that thoughtless obedience to their ideas would be a good thing? Also, there's somewhat of a difference between protecting what you believe is their interpretation of the constitution and protecting their interpretation of the constitution. As it is, conservatives mainly just use constitutional arguments where they find it convenient to advance their ideology, and otherwise ignore it.
 
I was afraid that modernizing the story to today's business plans would f' it all up. But they did a great job of it. Go see this, it was good.
 
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