Big Problem For The Right: 'Socialism' Is No Longer A Bad Word. You Must Now Explain

[PoliTalker]

Hello Howie,

Do you think a corporation could defeat a nation in battle?

Depends on the specific corporation and the nation. KBR vs some little pip squeak nation? KBR would win a traditional battle. Now if we're talking about cyber battles, there is a huge list of companies that could win battles with many large nations, the USA not being immune.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Hello Howie,



Depends on the specific corporation and the nation. KBR vs some little pip squeak nation? KBR would win a traditional battle. Now if we're talking about cyber battles, there is a huge list of companies that could win battles with many large nations, the USA not being immune.

You watch too many movies. Even Venezuela, right now, could pwn any corporation that came looking for a fight.

 

[Cypress]

Hello Howie,



Depends on the specific corporation and the nation. KBR vs some little pip squeak nation? KBR would win a traditional battle. Now if we're talking about cyber battles, there is a huge list of companies that could win battles with many large nations, the USA not being immune.

Corporations cannot directly declare war on anyone.

We are also kidding ourselves if we do not recognize that the American arms industry profits from war, death, mayhem, bloodshed, and wholesale violence.

America has a long history of instigating, funding, and supporting proxy wars - and America's arms industry has a long history of making hundreds of billions in profits selling weaponry to war zones that the American government has an interest in. War does not exist in a vacuum outside the realm of profit, resources, and corporate greed.

The link between corporate profits, foreign policy, and war is not exactly a well-guarded secret.

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

― Major General Smedley D. Butler

 

[David Jeffrey Spetch]

There was once a time when all you had to do was drop the 'S' word and you've made your case.

It was a powerful word which could be used to shut down any discussion of using our government to help society, using tax money to help the disadvantaged.

It was once thought that we had to choose between socialism and capitalism.

And there used to be a myth that: 'Once socialism begins, it will not stop until it destroys capitalism and the next thing you know the government controls everything and we turn into a communist nation where there is no freedom.'

That myth is still out there in the conservative world, but it has no power any more because liberals don't believe it any more. We are done falling for that.

We know better now.

We can see that many industrialized nations have a lot of socialism and they still have capitalism and freedom. They live longer with their universal health care systems, and they would NEVER want their health care system to be like the USA.

And we have used elements of socialism in the USA for a long time with good results. Social Security is so popular because it has transformed retirement in the USA and given dignity to the elderly. We honor our elders by taking care of them.

PoliTalker anti-troll thread thief disclaimer: If this thread is stolen, plagiarized, will the thief have the nerve to use the entire OP, word for word? Including this disclaimer? If you want my take on it, you'll have to post to this original PoliTalker thread. I refuse to be an enabler for online bullies, so I won't post to a stolen thread. I won't even read it. If you don't see me, PoliTalker, posting in this thread check the author. This might be a hijacked thread, not the original.

The days when people were afraid to favor socialism as a solution to common needs are over.

'Socialism' is no longer a bad word.

It is seen in a whole different light.

Bernie changed the landscape.

Now, conservatives will have to explain WHY they think socialism won't work.

Simply saying something is 'socialism' won't work any more.

Times have changed.

Bernie changed that. Thank you Bernie! You have changed the political landscape.

It is am extremely bad word, just not among traitors and tyrants that the main stream media showcases to defecate on the public with.

 

[Nordberg]

Corporations cannot directly declare war on anyone.

We are also kidding ourselves if we do not recognize that the American arms industry profits from war, death, mayhem, bloodshed, and wholesale violence.

America has a long history of instigating, funding, and supporting proxy wars - and America's arms industry has a long history of making hundreds of billions in profits selling weaponry to war zones that the American government has an interest in. War does not exist in a vacuum outside the realm of profit, resources, and corporate greed.

The link between corporate profits, foreign policy, and war is not exactly a well-guarded secret.

They do not have to, they pay politicians to do it. In 1953 the oil companies got Brit and American CIA operatives to overthrow an elected government in Iran. Mossadeq was going to nationalize the oil fields. We overthrew him and we installed a compliant brutal dictator for the next couple decades, We have paid for that ever since.
Dole and other fruit companies enslaved people like those in Cuba and the Dominican Republic.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello David Jeffrey Spetch,

It is am extremely bad word, just not among traitors and tyrants that the main stream media showcases to defecate on the public with.

That's old news. Times have changed. Liberals and progressives no longer shy away from it. We are getting far more comfortable with it. We have realized that conservatives were pushing a false meme. We have realized that socialism can be a good thing in the correct measure. Only conservatives are still afraid of a little socialism. Only conservatives think we have to choose between socialism and capitalism.

 

[Earl]

Hello David Jeffrey Spetch,



That's old news. Times have changed. Liberals and progressives no longer shy away from it. We are getting far more comfortable with it. We have realized that conservatives were pushing a false meme. We have realized that socialism can be a good thing in the correct measure. Only conservatives are still afraid of a little socialism. Only conservatives think we have to choose between socialism and capitalism.

Hello, PoliTalker.

Just because Liberals and progressives no longer shy away from the word, Socialism, doesn't mean that it isn't bad. It is bad...and evil. One only has to read a bit of history to see that Socialism is the purveyor of death and starvation and the enslavement of those who suffer under it.

I believe that you confuse fear with caution.

No Socialist has ever received more than .02% of the national vote in a presidential election.

The false meme is being promulgated by the left. Socialism and its step-father, Communism, have caused more misery, suffering and death than any thing else in the history of the world.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, friend.



https://www.justplainpolitics.com/forumdisplay.php?4-Current-Events-Forum

 

[Earl]

There is only a minimal difference between Communism (the ownership of goods and services by the government) and Socialism (the control of goods and services).

If you control goods and services, you are just a blink away from owing them.

 

[Bourbon]

Cuba’s Lessons after 55 Years of Socialism https://panampost.com/carlos-sabino/2014/01/10/lessons-55-years-socialism/?cn-reloaded=1

Cuban revolution and its 55-year anniversary. Cuba is a living example of how socialism hasn’t kept its promises; rather, it has achieved the exact opposite of what it previously offered. Let’s analyze this in Cuba’s case.

Even though there was a democratic euphoria at first, it only lasted a few weeks. The result was what we see today, 55 years of dictatorship, first led by Fidel Castro and then — due to his weakened health — by his brother Raúl. This regime couldn’t be further from democracy, similar to North Korea, and could even qualify as an absolute hereditary monarchy, similar to colonial times.

For half a century, Cuba’s government denied its citizens the right to leave the country, banned all political parties and groups, and denied all press freedoms. Cuba’s government also brutally harassed any kind of anti-government protest and filled prisons with political prisoners.

Some would say these are inevitable downsides of a revolution that had to confront United States’ imperialism and maintain a small country’s dignity. This couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s easy to remind these dreamers that Cuba has lived four decades as the Soviet Union’s colonial satellite, and it has survived only through other nations’ charitable handouts, currently from the generous oil-producing Venezuela.

The regime, however, continues to argue that the United States’ blockade has impeded Cuba’s economic growth. But there hasn’t been any blockade, only an embargo or prohibition to trade, established by the North American country and followed by a few others. Nothing has stopped Cuba from trading with the rest of the world, and they’ve had plenty of time to adjust.

This is the sad reality of a socialism that exemplifies the biggest ideological fraud of modern times. These are the facts, the hard facts, that those who still advocate policies that only lead to oppression, misery, and inequalities should keep in mind.

Wouldn't have anything to do with their dictators ... would it?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Earl,

There is only a minimal difference between Communism (the ownership of goods and services by the government) and Socialism (the control of goods and services).

Well then we already had socialism when 'America was great again.' (mid 50's?) We had Social Security then.

If you control goods and services, you are just a blink away from owing them.

We would be better off with a government owned health care system like Great Britain, where providers advance their pay by delivering good results. Must be why people live longer there. And they spend so much less per patient. What's not to like? The word 'socialism?'

Progressives are done fearing that word. Conservatives will catch on in a while.

 

[Cypress]

“It's true that private enterprise is extremely flexible, But its only good within very narrow limits. If private enterprise isn't held in an iron grip it gives birth to people who are no better than beasts, those stock-exchange people with greedy appetites beyond restraint.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Cancer Ward

"Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"Many of you have already found out and others will find out in the course of their lives that truth eludes us if we do not concentrate with total attention on its pursuit. And even while it eludes us, the illusion still lingers of knowing it and leads to many misunderstandings. Also, truth is seldom pleasant; it is almost invariably bitter. I have spent all my life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either. A decline in courage may be the most striking feature that an outside observer notices in the West today. The Western world has lost its civic courage, both as a whole and separately, in each country, in each government, in each political party, and, of course, in the United Nations. Such a decline in courage is particularly noticeable among the ruling and intellectual elites, causing an impression of a loss of courage by the entire society. There are many courageous individuals, but they have no determining influence on public life. "
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

 

[Nordberg]

Cuba cripples its own economy by forcibly telling its people that they may not engage in free enterprise.

they did not have to if the economy was successful. But we crippled it.

 

[Minister of Truth]

they did not have to if the economy was successful. But we crippled it.

Uh, you can't have a successful economy under Marxism.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Howard the Duck,

Uh, you can't have a successful economy under Marxism.

False. It is already happening all over the world.

Every major industrial nation except the USA has universal health care.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Hello Howard the Duck,



False. It is already happening all over the world.

Every major industrial nation except the USA has universal health care.

I didn't realize there were more than a few Marxist states in the world.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello HTD,

I didn't realize there were more than a few Marxist states in the world.

Well since your definitions are not the same as most people's it only follows.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Hello HTD,



Well since your definitions are not the same as most people's it only follows.

What have I incorrectly defined? That zero of the governments of the West are Marxist regimes is unlikely to be contested by many. I'm sure that my proper use of liberal democracy and Western liberalism has perplexed you, recently, given the atrocious habit that many have of confusing liberalism with progressive leftism.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello HTD,

What have I incorrectly defined? That zero of the governments of the West are Marxist regimes is unlikely to be contested by many. I'm sure that my proper use of liberal democracy and Western liberalism has perplexed you, recently, given the atrocious habit that many have of confusing liberalism with progressive leftism.

You said an economy can't be successful under Marxism. I have no doubt that your definition of Marxism would not match everybody else's. If you mean an absolute strict Marxism, well, we don't know. It has never been tried. But certainly elements of Marxism can be used to great success.

 

[Cypress]

What have I incorrectly defined? That zero of the governments of the West are Marxist regimes is unlikely to be contested by many. I'm sure that my proper use of liberal democracy and Western liberalism has perplexed you, recently, given the atrocious habit that many have of confusing liberalism with progressive leftism.

Nope, it is way too late for you to attempt to change the rules of the game.

The thread title is "Socialism", not "Marxism".

I realize you have a partisan agenda to attempt limit the use of the term socialism to the totalitarian Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist states of USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba.

But the leaders of your own party have called Western Europe "socialist" - therefore, by your own party's standards, we highlight Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Netherlands, France all as excellent examples of the success of socialism.

Leading Republicans Refer to Western Europe as "Socialists"

....(and let's not forget, rightwing message boarders have spent years calling western Europe "socialist")......

Lately it seems that not a day goes by without a Republican presidential candidate portraying Europe as a socialist nightmare. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum paint a picture of the Old World as unfree, strangulated by bureaucratic and inefficient welfare systems, and unable to reform and modernize. To these Republicans, Europe seems to be the antipode to everything America is meant to be.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.310f3f267a8a

Leading Republicans Call Western Europe "Socialist"

Newt Gingrich has constantly accused the president of being a "European Socialist", often adding in a reference to an all-but-forgotten community activist from Chicago, who died in 1972, but whose Democratic-leaning writings are thought to have influenced the current president

"I am for the Declaration of Independence; he is for the writing of Saul Alinsky. I am for the Constitution; he is for European socialism," Mr Gingrich told voters in Florida last week.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16583813

Bill O'Reilly noted rightwing blowhard: Western Europe is basically socialist

"I received a letter from Rhonda Hallett who lives in Jacksonville, North Carolina asking me to define Bernie's doctrine of Democratic socialism. Ok. That's basically what some countries in western Europe have, a political system that limits personal income through taxation in return for cradle to grave payouts from the governments. That's the trade."

http://nation.foxnews.com/2016/02/14...atic-socialism

Mike Pence is on record referring to western Europe as "socialist".

when Representative Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, denounced “European-style socialism,” in his speech at the conference on Thursday, the jeers from the crowd did not exactly signal an openness to debate it on the merits.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/weekinreview/01leibovich.html

European socialism taking root in US, Fox News's Stuart Varney says
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics...us-varney-says

 

[Minister of Truth]

Hello HTD,



You said an economy can't be successful under Marxism. I have no doubt that your definition of Marxism would not match everybody else's. If you mean an absolute strict Marxism, well, we don't know. It has never been tried. But certainly elements of Marxism can be used to great success.

Been tried, and failed. Starting with V. Lenin.