Can real civil discourse and good governance exist in our current 2-party paradigm?

cwjerome said:
And move out of the country? I guess they can.
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or a state, county, city......it's all applicable

cwjerome said:
Reps and Dems have been making policies and election laws for 150 years that's created a closed system and we've been socialized to think that's OK. It's a rigged system that puts party over people and has created this toxic mess.
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complete agreement here

cwjerome said:
I made a new FB page called "The Radical Independent" because every few years I get a hair to wake people up. But it'll probably go nowhere, lol
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good luck. few people ever do.
 
cwjerome said:
I say no. The toxic partisan dysfunction that exists cannot fix itself and will only continue (and only get worse).

It will take a nearly impossible effort of non-partisans, moderates, and independents (ie. reasonable non-maniacs) to force the political culture and electoral structure into change.

What say you?
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I doubt we will get our shit together quickly...the divide has grown too wide for that starting back in 1980...and on accelerant during the former guy's administration.

But it will almost certainly happen eventually...and using the two party system.

The idea that it can happen via a coalition of Independents (I am an Independent), moderates, and non-partisans (not sure how that is different from Independent)...is never going to happen in our system. The two parties may not be the same two parties...but in my opinion, it will be just two parties.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Moderate and independents are the absolute worst.
There's no such thing as a moderate solution to an immoderate problem.
Also, being unable to commit to a party is never a sign of good character.
Stay out of politics if you can't align with a collective cause.
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Totally disagree. In a dysfunctional and toxic 2 party system, opting out is the rational and moral thing to do. I'd rather let the system burn (which might happen because of those pathological tribes) than throw in with them.
 
cwjerome said:
Totally disagree. In a dysfunctional and toxic 2 party system, opting out is the rational and moral thing to do. I'd rather let the system burn (which might happen because of those pathological tribes) than throw in with them.
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Yet from my perspective, "Opting out" is straddling a fence because you have no balls so it doesn't hurt to straddle a fence.
One is certainly entitled to opt out....but doing so is regarded as a serious character flaw by anyone who expects social responsibility from his/her fellow citizens..
 
BidenPresident said:
What does opting out accomplish?
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I think if enough "opt out" we can break the 2 party stranglehold and make positive change. This is why I started a FB page "The Radical Independent" (I know, fairly insignificant) because I want to spread the word that people shouldn't have to be forced into two rotten choices and demand better.
 
cwjerome said:
I think if enough "opt out" we can break the 2 party stranglehold and make positive change. This is why I started a FB page "The Radical Independent" (I know, fairly insignificant) because I want to spread the word that people shouldn't have to be forced into two rotten choices and demand better.
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That makes the two parties more powerful. They are the government.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Yet from my perspective, "Opting out" is straddling a fence because you have no balls so it doesn't hurt to straddle a fence.
One is certainly entitled to opt out....but doing so is regarded as a serious character flaw by anyone who expects social responsibility from his/her fellow citizens..
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There is no fence and I'm not straddling anything. I've made my own ground instead of going the coward's way. As far as being seen as a character flaw by someone that expects social responsibility from fellow citizens, I am good with that. I do not seek approval from that crowd.
 
cwjerome said:
There is no fence and I'm not straddling anything. I've made my own ground instead of going the coward's way. As far as being seen as a character flaw by someone that expects social responsibility from fellow citizens, I am good with that. I do not seek approval from that crowd.
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Approval isn't your problem.
Tolerance is, and it's fading quickly.
 
cwjerome said:
If people stop voting for them and vote for others, it will not make them more powerful. When I say "opt out" I mean ditch the 2 party paradigm, not go hide in a basement.
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There are two parties. If you are suggesting a third party it will not happen. So government will be Democrats and Republicans.
 
BidenPresident said:
There are two parties. If you are suggesting a third party it will not happen. So government will be Democrats and Republicans.
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You don't need to win elections, you need to change them. If Rep and Dem parties realize they can't win without the support of the common sense moderates/independents, they change their tune and start pandering to reasonable people, not the extremes.
 
cwjerome said:
I think if enough "opt out" we can break the 2 party stranglehold and make positive change. This is why I started a FB page "The Radical Independent" (I know, fairly insignificant) because I want to spread the word that people shouldn't have to be forced into two rotten choices and demand better.
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I think if we all grew wings...getting around might be easier. But we ain't gonna grow wings...and there is almost no chance we will ever break the two party stranglehold.

If you ask for magical solutions...the problem does not go away.

We are going to have a two party system in this country for the lifetime of our youngest posters. If we are lucky, the Republican Party will go out of business and be replaced by something else.

In any case, no matter how many parties we have...or what their ideologies are, the parties and their politicians are not really the problem. The real problem is that all of the people running for office under their banners will be...

...HUMANS.

And humans will always put self and family first...no matter what.

Mother Theresa did it; Albert Schweitzer did it; Wendell Pomerantz did it...and so will EVERY human elected to office.

Get over the bullshit that somehow there is a way to be governed by people actually "dedicated to the people" before all else. We will not see philosopher kings...nor would any of us want to see them.

And don't think for one second that if you were elected, you would be an exception to the dynamic I am suggesting here.
 
cwjerome said:
I say no. The toxic partisan dysfunction that exists cannot fix itself and will only continue (and only get worse).

It will take a nearly impossible effort of non-partisans, moderates, and independents (ie. reasonable non-maniacs) to force the political culture and electoral structure into change.

What say you?
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As soon as infotainment and social media is recognized as the manipulated information sources they are demagoguery won’t thrive as it does today and actual discourse would lead to better governance
 
cwjerome said:
You don't need to win elections, you need to change them. If Rep and Dem parties realize they can't win without the support of the common sense moderates/independents, they change their tune and start pandering to reasonable people, not the extremes.
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Independents stand for nothing other than apathy. They're not in the game. They complain a lot, but that's about it.

While multiple parties make sense to me, people always say "third party" as though that were some form of panacea.

They don't even give any explanation as to situating this third party ideologically.

As long as it's not Democratic or Republican, it will help solve the problem.

Also, those who seek to establish an alternate party always do it with a presidential candidate.
They don't have so much as a fucking local school committee member anywhere, but they want a third party president with NO congressional or state support whatsoever.

This type of lunacy shouldn't be encouraged or even tolerated.
These idiots need to be institutionalized.
 
BidenPresident said:
They can win without moderates. How Trump got elected.
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Moderates did vote for Trump, the first time. And that's the problem, moderates and many others are basically forced into voting for the lesser of two evils and someone that goes against their values and instincts. I call that a broken system.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Independents stand for nothing other than apathy. They're not in the game. They complain a lot, but that's about it.

While multiple parties make sense to me, people always say "third party" as though that were some form of panacea.

They don't even give any explanation as to situating this third party ideologically.

As long as it's not Democratic or Republican, it will help solve the problem.

Also, those who seek to establish an alternate party always do it with a presidential candidate.
They don't have so much as a fucking local school committee member anywhere, but they want a third party president with NO congressional or state support whatsoever.

This type of lunacy shouldn't be encouraged or even tolerated.
These idiots need to be institutionalized.
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Spoken like a true ideologue. Excellent propaganda.
 
cwjerome said:
Moderates did vote for Trump, the first time. And that's the problem, moderates and many others are basically forced into voting for the lesser of two evils and someone that goes against their values and instincts. I call that a broken system.
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Okay. I don't see how not voting does anything but make the problem worse.
 
I think if enough people organized to create an unofficial 3rd bloc, it could help force the Reps and Dems into more discipline and responsibility. Right now, they take millions of voters for granted because they expect the votes regardless of how terrible they are.
 
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