Car Dealers Are Sneaky Scum

[American Man]

I just purchased a 2022 Kia yesterday. It was quite the adventure.

My tip is to focus on the price and the interest rate being offered, rather than the monthly payment, which is what they want you to focus on. Go in with a pre-approved auto loan from another bank and see if they can beat those rates, because relying on their rates is always a bad idea. Oh, and educate yourself on all of the unnecessary "dealer fees" that you absolutely don't need to pay. (I saved about $3,500 by threatening to walk out when they initially refused to remove certain ridiculous fees. For instance, their BS "transportation fee" of over a thousand dollars is included in the MSRP, but they still tried to sneak it in anyway.) And be careful about what you sign and when you sign it!

It's a shame how sneaky they are and how little government oversight there is, but if you do research and stand your ground and know your rights as a consumer, you'll get a good deal.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I don't do that at all, and I've bought like half-a-dozen new cars. Instead, I figure out my payment and work back from that.

Last time I did a new car deal was for two vehicles, a Nissan Frontier (my 5th-- I drive my trucks into the ground. #4 is being driven by my son and has over 250,000 miles on it now. #5 is at 85,000) and a Nissan Versa for my mom (she's 94 this year). The salesperson kept going back and forth to the shmuck that was supposedly doing the deal. I went into an empty sales office and got a couple of sheets of paper off a printer, did my calculations back from what I wanted to pay per month with a $10,000 down payment on the two vehicles, and handed to to the salesperson (now imagine the whole time I was far less than cordial to her--far less to the point of being insulting-- and said, "This is the deal. Tell your troll accept it or I walk."

I even wrote that on the paper.

Yep, they accepted that in writing and two hours later I drove off the lot...

New car buying isn't that big a hassle when you have leverage. You should have seen that woman's eyes as I went to the bank and handed her $10,000 in hundred dollar bills for the down... I insisted on cash rather than a check for the shock value. I told her I could have paid cash for both cars but I doubted that the dealer would give me a 15% discount on the price...

I would add, that I wasn't just harsh with the saleslady, I told her several times it wasn't her fault that the process was adversarial and that her bosses were assholes...

 

[Commander Dutch]

I just purchased a 2022 Kia yesterday. It was quite the adventure.

My tip is to focus on the price and the interest rate being offered, rather than the monthly payment, which is what they want you to focus on. Go in with a pre-approved auto loan from another bank and see if they can beat those rates, because relying on their rates is always a bad idea. Oh, and educate yourself on all of the unnecessary "dealer fees" that you absolutely don't need to pay. (I saved about $3,500 by threatening to walk out when they initially refused to remove certain ridiculous fees. For instance, their BS "transportation fee" of over a thousand dollars is included in the MSRP, but they still tried to sneak it in anyway.) And be careful about what you sign and when you sign it!

It's a shame how sneaky they are and how little government oversight there is, but if you do research and stand your ground and know your rights as a consumer, you'll get a good deal.

I've only bought two new cars in my life and avoid car salesmen like they had Bubonic Plague.

That said, everyone should buy a new car at least one. I prefer late model used cars from individuals. Same goes for selling cars since dealerships will screw you there too.

 

[Yakuda]

I don't do that at all, and I've bought like half-a-dozen new cars. Instead, I figure out my payment and work back from that.

Last time I did a new car deal was for two vehicles, a Nissan Frontier (my 5th-- I drive my trucks into the ground. #4 is being driven by my son and has over 250,000 miles on it now. #5 is at 85,000) and a Nissan Versa for my mom (she's 94 this year). The salesperson kept going back and forth to the shmuck that was supposedly doing the deal. I went into an empty sales office and got a couple of sheets of paper off a printer, did my calculations back from what I wanted to pay per month with a $10,000 down payment on the two vehicles, and handed to to the salesperson (now imagine the whole time I was far less than cordial to her--far less to the point of being insulting-- and said, "This is the deal. Tell your troll accept it or I walk."

I even wrote that on the paper.

Yep, they accepted that in writing and two hours later I drove off the lot...

New car buying isn't that big a hassle when you have leverage. You should have seen that woman's eyes as I went to the bank and handed her $10,000 in hundred dollar bills for the down... I insisted on cash rather than a check for the shock value. I told her I could have paid cash for both cars but I doubted that the dealer would give me a 15% discount on the price...

I would add, that I wasn't just harsh with the saleslady, I told her several times it wasn't her fault that the process was adversarial and that her bosses were assholes...

The buyer always had the leverage you just have to be willing to walk away

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The buyer always had the leverage you just have to be willing to walk away

Exactly. You should walk in knowing what the vehicle should cost, and how much you are willing to pay for it in total and or by monthly payment. If you don't do that, you got nothin' coming when they try to rake you over the coals...

 

[American Man]

I don't do that at all, and I've bought like half-a-dozen new cars. Instead, I figure out my payment and work back from that.

Last time I did a new car deal was for two vehicles, a Nissan Frontier (my 5th-- I drive my trucks into the ground. #4 is being driven by my son and has over 250,000 miles on it now. #5 is at 85,000) and a Nissan Versa for my mom (she's 94 this year). The salesperson kept going back and forth to the shmuck that was supposedly doing the deal. I went into an empty sales office and got a couple of sheets of paper off a printer, did my calculations back from what I wanted to pay per month with a $10,000 down payment on the two vehicles, and handed to to the salesperson (now imagine the whole time I was far less than cordial to her--far less to the point of being insulting-- and said, "This is the deal. Tell your troll accept it or I walk."

I even wrote that on the paper.

Yep, they accepted that in writing and two hours later I drove off the lot...

New car buying isn't that big a hassle when you have leverage. You should have seen that woman's eyes as I went to the bank and handed her $10,000 in hundred dollar bills for the down... I insisted on cash rather than a check for the shock value. I told her I could have paid cash for both cars but I doubted that the dealer would give me a 15% discount on the price...

I would add, that I wasn't just harsh with the saleslady, I told her several times it wasn't her fault that the process was adversarial and that her bosses were assholes...

By the way you describe things, you probably got ripped off. What APR did they offer you? If your credit score is decent, anything over 3% is robbery, and most dealers never go below 5% or 6%, whereas banks will go as low as 1.49% for exceptional credit. That's a few thousand dollars in savings. Monthly payment is determined out when you tell the bank your loan amount and the term length.

You walk in with outside financing, tell the dealer you're a cash buyer, and you avoid all the BS. And make sure you don't pay for "nitrogen-filled tires" and other nonsense that they typically charge hundreds for.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

By the way you describe things, you probably got ripped off. What APR did they offer you? If your credit score is decent, anything over 3% is robbery, and most dealers never go below 5% or 6%, whereas banks will go as low as 1.49% for exceptional credit. That's a few thousand dollars in savings. Monthly payment is determined out when you tell the bank your loan amount and the term length.

Don't care what the APR is. I care what the payment is and the number of payments to be made. If the APR was higher they'd have to go lower on the vehicle cost to make the payment calculations come out correct. If the APR was lower they get a higher vehicle cost and the payment is still the same.

Trying to haggle over the cost of the vehicle leaves you not knowing what your payment will be. That's how you get ripped off. If you start from what the payment will be for x number of months, and work backwards, you get the deal you want at the payment you're willing to make.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I just purchased a 2022 Kia yesterday. It was quite the adventure.

My tip is to focus on the price and the interest rate being offered, rather than the monthly payment, which is what they want you to focus on. Go in with a pre-approved auto loan from another bank and see if they can beat those rates, because relying on their rates is always a bad idea. Oh, and educate yourself on all of the unnecessary "dealer fees" that you absolutely don't need to pay. (I saved about $3,500 by threatening to walk out when they initially refused to remove certain ridiculous fees. For instance, their BS "transportation fee" of over a thousand dollars is included in the MSRP, but they still tried to sneak it in anyway.) And be careful about what you sign and when you sign it!

It's a shame how sneaky they are and how little government oversight there is, but if you do research and stand your ground and know your rights as a consumer, you'll get a good deal.

Another example of our ridiculously under-regulated private sector.
Auto sales belong in the private sector--the dealerships aren't hospitals--but where's the oversight as you say?

 

[RB 60]

I don't do that at all, and I've bought like half-a-dozen new cars. Instead, I figure out my payment and work back from that.

Last time I did a new car deal was for two vehicles, a Nissan Frontier (my 5th-- I drive my trucks into the ground. #4 is being driven by my son and has over 250,000 miles on it now. #5 is at 85,000) and a Nissan Versa for my mom (she's 94 this year). The salesperson kept going back and forth to the shmuck that was supposedly doing the deal. I went into an empty sales office and got a couple of sheets of paper off a printer, did my calculations back from what I wanted to pay per month with a $10,000 down payment on the two vehicles, and handed to to the salesperson (now imagine the whole time I was far less than cordial to her--far less to the point of being insulting-- and said, "This is the deal. Tell your troll accept it or I walk."

I even wrote that on the paper.

Yep, they accepted that in writing and two hours later I drove off the lot...

New car buying isn't that big a hassle when you have leverage. You should have seen that woman's eyes as I went to the bank and handed her $10,000 in hundred dollar bills for the down... I insisted on cash rather than a check for the shock value. I told her I could have paid cash for both cars but I doubted that the dealer would give me a 15% discount on the price...

I would add, that I wasn't just harsh with the saleslady, I told her several times it wasn't her fault that the process was adversarial and that her bosses were assholes...

I'm good friends with the boss

 

[American Man]

Don't care what the APR is. I care what the payment is and the number of payments to be made. If the APR was higher they'd have to go lower on the vehicle cost to make the payment calculations come out correct. If the APR was lower they get a higher vehicle cost and the payment is still the same.

Trying to haggle over the cost of the vehicle leaves you not knowing what your payment will be. That's how you get ripped off. If you start from what the payment will be for x number of months, and work backwards, you get the deal you want at the payment you're willing to make.

Dealers WANT you to focus on monthly payments. And you're a rube if you finance through a dealer.

If you get outside financing, you can determine all the factors (length of term, monthly payment, etc) without the dealer even being involved.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Dealers WANT you to focus on monthly payments. And you're a rube if you finance through a dealer.

If you get outside financing, you can determine all the factors (length of term, monthly payment, etc) without the dealer even being involved.

You really don't get it do you? If I have calculated out what I want to pay in terms of payments, and the dealer agrees to those terms then I got the deal I wanted. The APR and vehicle price are irrelevant to that. I will end up paying over the life of the loan what I think is a good deal. It doesn't matter who the financing is through, or what the exact price of the vehicle is. I will end up paying--in total, price and interest--what I think is a good deal.

Only an idiot fixates on the price and once that's settled, starts negotiating the loan. That is what the dealer expects and wants.

When you start at the outcome and work back, you get the deal you want. When you work forward from the price of the vehicle you have no clue what the outcome will be and get screwed.

 

[RB 60]

Dealers WANT you to focus on monthly payments. And you're a rube if you finance through a dealer.

If you get outside financing, you can determine all the factors (length of term, monthly payment, etc) without the dealer even being involved.

True. But if you're smart, you'll have a good down payment and can afford the short term dealer's (manufacturer's) low interest loan.

I agree, bank financing is more flexible.

 

[Lightbringer]

American Man got hosed at the dealer and after reading his OP it's apparent why, he doesn't know how to figure value. Everything he said is something an idiot would say. You need to know the value first, everything else is based off of that.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Dealers WANT you to focus on monthly payments. And you're a rube if you finance through a dealer.

If you get outside financing, you can determine all the factors (length of term, monthly payment, etc) without the dealer even being involved.

Agreed. I always had better rates through my credit union or USAA.

 

[Althea]

Dad was a car salesman. I'm the guy who gets calls from friends when they want to buy a new car.

Know your terms, and drop them to the salesperson. They don't do the deal...the sales manager does.

'Holdback'. Typically 3% of MSRP. That's what the dealer gets from the manufacturer on every new car they sell. It helps to offset the interest they pay from their floor plan.

It used to be easier to find out what the invoice price on the car you want is. Cars.com used to allow you to build a car, and they would show invoice/msrp when got done. Armed with this information, you can walk in and 'ask' the salesperson if the manager will let the car go at invoice. They don't do it anymore, so I go to the scam site 'true car' and build a car. You have to give them your email address in order to find out invoice.

I used to think that was a bad thing. I now know that getting 'harassed' from 6 dealerships via email is actually better. You can sit in your living room and start a bidding war.

Given the aforementioned holdback, most sales managers will let the car go at invoice, especially since they typically have other 'hidden' cash from the manufacturer.

When you walk into a dealership looking for a car they have on the lot, or better yet one that you want to build, you can ask "I'm not going to ask you to go into your holdback, but ask your sales manager if he'll let this car go at invoice"

They know that you understand how their business works, and will typically let the car go at that price. You get any incentives on the vehicle at the time.


Success also depends on the time of year. November/December are the best months to buy a vehicle, as the incentives are almost at peak. Inventory might be slim, though.

Some vehicles come with a 0% or very low finance rate as one of the incentives. Decide if you're better off taking thousands in cash, or get 0% interest.

 

[chainbreak]

I just purchased a 2022 Kia yesterday. It was quite the adventure.

My tip is to focus on the price and the interest rate being offered, rather than the monthly payment, which is what they want you to focus on. Go in with a pre-approved auto loan from another bank and see if they can beat those rates, because relying on their rates is always a bad idea. Oh, and educate yourself on all of the unnecessary "dealer fees" that you absolutely don't need to pay. (I saved about $3,500 by threatening to walk out when they initially refused to remove certain ridiculous fees. For instance, their BS "transportation fee" of over a thousand dollars is included in the MSRP, but they still tried to sneak it in anyway.) And be careful about what you sign and when you sign it!

It's a shame how sneaky they are and how little government oversight there is, but if you do research and stand your ground and know your rights as a consumer, you'll get a good deal.

Lying to and trying to scam the consumer is the essence of capitalism. You are right. Used car dealers are scum. If you are going to buy a used car, buy one from a private seller. Just ask them up front why they are selling it to begin with. And if there is something wrong with it that you should know about. Though if it is a fairly expensive used vehicle, ask if they have any objections to bringing it to a mechanic to be look over before you buy it. If they object to that, walk away.

 

[archives]

Why would anyone take out a car loan from a dealer?

You do your homework, decide on the vehicle you want to buy, shop amongst several dealers as to who is going to give you the most advantageous deal, get the price you like, and go to the bank or credit union for the loan. Am I missing something?

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Now that the price of used cars went up, people are starting to purchase new ones again.

Not me, as I stopped buying New Cars a couple of cars back.

New autos at that time were the world's worst investment.

That may be changing now that used ones almost cost the price of a new one.

The trick is buy a good one and take care of it and drive it 300,000 miles.

 

[archives]

Now that the price of used cars went up, people are starting to purchase new ones again.

Not me, as I stopped buying New Cars a couple of cars back.

New autos at that time were the world's worst investment.

That may be changing now that used ones almost cost the price of a new one.

The trick is buy a good one and take care of it and drive it 300,000 miles.

Been my approach ever since I could afford a new vehicle, don't have, nor want, an extensive knowledge of auto mechanics, nor am I concerned about what I drive, live in the NE, buy it and drive it as long as you can, I've always gotten my money out of my it

 

[Althea]

Lying to and trying to scam the consumer is the essence of capitalism. You are right. Used car dealers are scum. If you are going to buy a used car, buy one from a private seller. Just ask them up front why they are selling it to begin with. And if there is something wrong with it that you should know about. Though if it is a fairly expensive used vehicle, ask if they have any objections to bringing it to a mechanic to be look over before you buy it. If they object to that, walk away.

It might vary from state to state, but it is illegal for dealerships to sell lemons. Not so for private sales, but it's possible to buy a good used car from a friend or 'little old lady from Pasadena'