Centrist Democrats should stop blaming progressives for Harris’s loss

[cawacko]

Correction.... every demographic Biden won FOUR YEARS AGO.

At the end of four miserable years of trump's drama and nonsense that the nation had had enough of and at which point they were ready to get back to sanity in the WH.

So, even though Joe's age was already a consideration, he still came off as being vigorous and energetic enough to handle the job and people said yes to the idea of him as our next President.

But things change in four years. trump left Biden a big pile of shit to clean up, which he did quite nicely, but in 2024, prices were still high (thanks to corporate price gouging) and Joe had just become too frail.

Kamala Harris was as good a candidate as anyone else.

I know you're not making the argument (that she lost because she's a woman) but I'll ask you the question. Biden's was already trailing against Trump prior to the fateful debate. The combination is what made Dem power players go into action. When Harris was announced as the candidate, all of a sudden there was excitement among Democratic voters and her poll numbers rose to the point she was leading Trump.

She ultimately didn't win of course but if it was simply because she was a woman how did she have that bump in the polls and take the lead at one point (something Biden couldn't do)?

 

[Earl]

Correction.... every demographic Biden won FOUR YEARS AGO.

At the end of four miserable years of trump's drama and nonsense that the nation had had enough of and at which point they were ready to get back to sanity in the WH.

So, even though Joe's age was already a consideration, he still came off as being vigorous and energetic enough to handle the job and people said yes to the idea of him as our next President.

But things change in four years. trump left Biden a big pile of shit to clean up, which he did quite nicely, but in 2024, prices were still high (thanks to corporate price gouging) and Joe had just become too frail.

Kamala Harris was as good a candidate as anyone else.

You believe that corporate gouging was the cause of the four year Biden/Harris cumulative 20% inflation?

Surely you jest.

Energy prices and insane spending.

It does not matter what you believe. Americans have rejected the far left, insane ideology.

 

[Nomad]

For many, this was definitely a 'hold your nose' vote. What I never believed that I would see from a sane nation is that anyone who is disgusted by trans rights would, for that one issue, allow trump to destroy the nation.

I just don't see a significant number of people who are that repulsed by something that has absolutely no affect on their lives.

In the end, I believe it turned on misogyny, even by women.

I think you are viewing the country's attitude towards trans issues through the lens of your own feelings on the subject. I think you're projecting your own attitudes onto everyone else.

You keep using the phrase "trans rights" as if people who are turned off by the whole trans issue don't want them to have rights. No reasonable centrist Democrat is for denying any group equal protection under the law. But when you start advocating for things like allowing biological males to go into women's restrooms, play on women's sports teams, wear dresses or worse yet, their drag costumes to work, even as public school teachers, put on drag shows for children, etc, etc, where does it stop, etc.... you've crossed what most traditionally raised Americans, Democrats included, see as the line in the sand.

Transgender people should obviously have the same basic rights as everyone else, but if I as a heterosexual, biological male am not allowed to call myself a woman then just walk into a women's restroom and flop my dick out, then these people should not be allowed to either. Plain and simple.

And don't say it would never happen because you know it would.

Besides, I really don't think it's even about their "rights" per se.

I think it's about preventing the normalization in society, of what most people, myself included, see as freakish, abnormal and quite frankly, silly-ass behavior.

I think most people are very uncomfortable with the idea of our society turning into one that views transgender and drag queen nonsense as the status quo. You want to call yourself something other than what you were born as? Fine. Just do it on your own time and keep it away from other people's children and out of the workplace.

I don't think Harris would have pushed that as a political agenda because she's smart enough to know that it would be politically unpopular with mainstream Americans, but she'd have made some minor concessions to them and certainly would not have been openly hostile towards them as is this new bunch about to enter the picture.

But years ago, I was saying right here on JPP, if the progressive woke crowd doesn't fully and unconditionally throw their support behind whichever candidate the Democrats nominate, they'd have to live with the consequences of the right-wing alternative.

And now, that's what they're going to have to do along with the rest of us.

To them re: the upcoming shit sandwich, I say bon appetit.

 

[Nomad]

I know you're not making the argument (that she lost because she's a woman) but I'll ask you the question. Biden's was already trailing against Trump prior to the fateful debate. The combination is what made Dem power players go into action. When Harris was announced as the candidate, all of a sudden there was excitement among Democratic voters and her poll numbers rose to the point she was leading Trump.

She ultimately didn't win of course but if it was simply because she was a woman how did she have that bump in the polls and take the lead at one point (something Biden couldn't do)?

Good question.

I don't know obviously, but I think it might be because polls are becoming increasingly inaccurate thanks to various factors including technology and social media.

But who knows?

More astute expert minds than ours are still looking for the answers to such questions.

 

[Nomad]

You believe that corporate gouging was the cause of the four year Biden/Harris cumulative 20% inflation?

Surely you jest.

Energy prices and insane spending.

It does not matter what you believe. Americans have rejected the far left, insane ideology.

You only swallow whatever trump shits into your mouth anyway, so I won't bother with you.

Go lick your lips and beg for more.

 

[cawacko]

I think you are viewing the country's attitude towards trans issues through the lens of your own feelings on the subject. I think you're projecting your own attitudes onto everyone else.

You keep using the phrase "trans rights" as if people who are turned off by the whole trans issue don't want them to have rights. No reasonable centrist Democrat is for denying any group equal protection under the law. But when you start advocating for things like allowing biological males to go into women's restrooms, play on women's sports teams, wear dresses or worse yet, their drag costumes to work, even as public school teachers, put on drag shows for children, etc, etc, where does it stop, etc.... you've crossed what most traditionally raised Americans, Democrats included, see as the line in the sand.

Transgender people should obviously have the same basic rights as everyone else, but if I as a heterosexual, biological male am not allowed to call myself a woman then just walk into a women's restroom and flop my dick out, then these people should not be allowed to either. Plain and simple.

And don't say it would never happen because you know it would.

Besides, I really don't think it's even about their "rights" per se.

I think it's about preventing the normalization in society, of what most people, myself included, see as freakish, abnormal and quite frankly, silly-ass behavior.

I think most people are very uncomfortable with the idea of our society turning into one that views transgender and drag queen nonsense as the status quo. You want to call yourself something other than what you were born as? Fine. Just do it on your own time and keep it away from other people's children and out of the workplace.

I don't think Harris would have pushed that as a political agenda because she's smart enough to know that it would be politically unpopular with mainstream Americans, but she'd have made some minor concessions to them and certainly would not have been openly hostile towards them as is this new bunch about to enter the picture.

But years ago, I was saying right here on JPP, if the progressive woke crowd doesn't fully and unconditionally throw their support behind whichever candidate the Democrats nominate, they'd have to live with the consequences of the right-wing alternative.

And now, that's what they're going to have to do along with the rest of us.

To them re: the upcoming shit sandwich, I say bon appetit.

I have friends like you Nomad (living where I do it's not surprising most of the people I know lean left on the political spectrum). These are people that hate Trump (think Jan 6th people should all be shot and kicked out the country as well as most Trump supporters) yet they are over wokeness. Think it's gone (way) too far.

There are tens of millions of Republicans and Democrats (as well as people who are neither) in this country and of course among the Republicans and Democrats, not everyone agrees on everything. Even among the left on this board there are people such as you and NN who push back against the excesses of wokeness while others support it.

I'm not making any major point here other than I find your thoughts interesting in the sense of knowing others who share your sentiments.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Yes, green is blue.

Incorrect. Blue is red in American politics...

 

[Libhater]

And the centrists are exactly right.

The author of that article is probably a woke sympathizer who will now do what all extremist, partisan ideologues do... refuse to accept blame or responsibility for their failures.


The woke progressive left did exactly what I was saying two years ago that they'd do in the next election ... they drove a significant number of people who would have otherwise voted Democrat, over to the right.

Mainstream Americans on both sides don't want to hear a bunch of gender confused babbling out of freaky looking people with neon colored hair....

America is not going to accept that kind of flakiness as normal.

So now the proggies can enjoy the shit show they helped force upon us.

Gee, and all this time of reading many of your posts, I certainly believed that you weren't just a radical lefty,
but that you were on the same page as progressives like AOC, Pocahontas, and Bernie Sanders. Looks like
you're starting to get the message that the further left one goes, the further they get closer to hell on earth.

 

[Nomad]

Gee, and all this time of reading many of your posts, I certainly believed that you weren't just a radical lefty,
but that you were on the same page as progressives like AOC, Pocahontas, and Bernie Sanders. Looks like
you're starting to get the message that the further left one goes, the further they get closer to hell on earth.

You don't know anything about me or my views.

I've been espousing centrist, non-progressive views for years.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Name 5 current Democrat members of Congress who are "Centrists."

Criteria might include--since this should be at least somewhat measurable:

Votes 30 +% of the time with other party on legislation, or at least votes with the other party on a regular basis.
Sponsors bi-partisan legislation that was initiated by the other party.
Regularly holds views that are in difference to their party's leadership in whole or part.

 

[Althea]

I think you are viewing the country's attitude towards trans issues through the lens of your own feelings on the subject. I think you're projecting your own attitudes onto everyone else.

You keep using the phrase "trans rights" as if people who are turned off by the whole trans issue don't want them to have rights. No reasonable centrist Democrat is for denying any group equal protection under the law. But when you start advocating for things like allowing biological males to go into women's restrooms, play on women's sports teams, wear dresses or worse yet, their drag costumes to work, even as public school teachers, put on drag shows for children, etc, etc, where does it stop, etc.... you've crossed what most traditionally raised Americans, Democrats included, see as the line in the sand.

Transgender people should obviously have the same basic rights as everyone else, but if I as a heterosexual, biological male am not allowed to call myself a woman then just walk into a women's restroom and flop my dick out, then these people should not be allowed to either. Plain and simple.

And don't say it would never happen because you know it would.

Besides, I really don't think it's even about their "rights" per se.

I think it's about preventing the normalization in society, of what most people, myself included, see as freakish, abnormal and quite frankly, silly-ass behavior.

I think most people are very uncomfortable with the idea of our society turning into one that views transgender and drag queen nonsense as the status quo. You want to call yourself something other than what you were born as? Fine. Just do it on your own time and keep it away from other people's children and out of the workplace.

I don't think Harris would have pushed that as a political agenda because she's smart enough to know that it would be politically unpopular with mainstream Americans, but she'd have made some minor concessions to them and certainly would not have been openly hostile towards them as is this new bunch about to enter the picture.

But years ago, I was saying right here on JPP, if the progressive woke crowd doesn't fully and unconditionally throw their support behind whichever candidate the Democrats nominate, they'd have to live with the consequences of the right-wing alternative.

And now, that's what they're going to have to do along with the rest of us.

To them re: the upcoming shit sandwich, I say bon appetit.

I draw the line at sports, and get criticized here whenever I do. Other than that, I really don't care which bathroom they use, etc.. The fallacy re. all trans people being pedophiles is silly. Children seeing trans people in public would no more make them want to dress like that, than seeing an amputee in public would make them want to cut off a leg.

Assume everything you claim is correct. When weighed against the destruction of our society as we know it via a MAGA rule, I simply do not believe that there are so many transphobics in the voting population.

I give much more weight to the loss of both sides of the Israel/Palestine issue, and gross misogyny. There were quite a few morons (who just broke records on Black Friday spending) who spread the nonsense that they cannot afford eggs because of Harris. It boggles the mind that they believe the biggest failure of a businessman in the history of this nation would be better on the economy.

 

[Nomad]

I draw the line at sports, and get criticized here whenever I do. Other than that, I really don't care which bathroom they use, etc.. The fallacy re. all trans people being pedophiles is silly. Children seeing trans people in public would no more make them want to dress like that, than seeing an amputee in public would make them want to cut off a leg.

I think that completely misses the point.

I can't speak for trumpers, but I doubt many if any of the more reasonable and rational minded moderates of either party think that all trans people are pedophiles. I know I don't.

As I said earlier, what people seem to be against is normalizing certain things.

We were all brought up in a world where, in public spaces men and women use separate restrooms. Why? Mainly because most girls and women are not anywhere near comfortable with the idea of a man in the same restroom as them, much less taking a dump in the adjacent toilet stall while they're changing a tampon. Put yourself in their position.

How there are people who are just too obtuse or one-sided to get that just baffles me.

But beyond that, the idea that extremist left-wing trans-huggers want to dissolve any and all lines that separate men from women is just something that's too far of a reach for most people.

Myself included.

Assume everything you claim is correct. When weighed against the destruction of our society as we know it via a MAGA rule, I simply do not believe that there are so many transphobics in the voting population.

Why does being against some strange man being allowed to take a shit next to one's wife or daughter in the restroom at The Olive Garden make one a "transphobe"? I think you're prone to jump to a conclusion or two.

I give much more weight to the loss of both sides of the Israel/Palestine issue, and gross misogyny. There were quite a few morons (who just broke records on Black Friday spending) who spread the nonsense that they cannot afford eggs because of Harris. It boggles the mind that they believe the biggest failure of a businessman in the history of this nation would be better on the economy.

Well on that we agree completely. And it's another thing I've been saying for years.

People on the right bitch about their taxes being so high they can barely afford to live.... supposedly. Come Black Friday, they're lined up around the building at Best Buy, ready to plunk down a thousand bucks for the latest iPhone. Or people on both sides who cry about food prices then jump at the chance to plunk down hundreds of dollars to see Garth Brooks or Taylor Swift in concert. Or whatever.

I'm convinced that the reason why trumpers are trumpers is multifold.

First, there's the shared sense of contempt. They have nothing but contempt for decency and they see that same contempt reflected in trump. He has contempt for all the same people and things that they have contempt for.

Then there's the revenge factor. Most of these people are dissatisfied with where they are in life. They think they should be rich and powerful and able to tell other people what to do and what religion to believe in and make them stay in their own country, etc, etc.... but in reality they are nobodies. Their lives suck and are full of misery and failure. So they want to get back at the people who are well adjusted and basically happy, but the only thing they have the power to do, is band together with the rest of the miserable losers in the country and elect their chosen stick in the eye of the people they resent.

They'll show us, by God. They'll teach us to think we're so smart and to be such do-gooders.

They'll make the rest of society as unhappy and miserable as they are.

 

[cawacko]

I think that completely misses the point.

I can't speak for trumpers, but I doubt many if any of the more reasonable and rational minded moderates of either party think that all trans people are pedophiles. I know I don't.

As I said earlier, what people seem to be against is normalizing certain things.

We were all brought up in a world where, in public spaces men and women use separate restrooms. Why? Mainly because most girls and women are not anywhere near comfortable with the idea of a man in the same restroom as them, much less taking a dump in the adjacent toilet stall while they're changing a tampon. Put yourself in their position.

How there are people who are just too obtuse or one-sided to get that just baffles me.

But beyond that, the idea that extremist left-wing trans-huggers want to dissolve any and all lines that separate men from women is just something that's too far of a reach for most people.

Myself included.

Why does being against some strange man being allowed to take a shit next to one's wife or daughter in the restroom at The Olive Garden make one a "transphobe"? I think you're prone to jump to a conclusion or two.

Well on that we agree completely. And it's another thing I've been saying for years.

People on the right bitch about their taxes being so high they can barely afford to live.... supposedly. Come Black Friday, they're lined up around the building at Best Buy, ready to plunk down a thousand bucks for the latest iPhone. Or people on both sides who cry about food prices then jump at the chance to plunk down hundreds of dollars to see Garth Brooks or Taylor Swift in concert. Or whatever.

I'm convinced that the reason why trumpers are trumpers is multifold.

First, there's the shared sense of contempt. They have nothing but contempt for decency and they see that same contempt reflected in trump. He has contempt for all the same people and things that they have contempt for.

Then there's the revenge factor. Most of these people are dissatisfied with where they are in life. They think they should be rich and powerful and able to tell other people what to do and what religion to believe in and make them stay in their own country, etc, etc.... but in reality they are nobodies. Their lives suck and are full of misery and failure. So they want to get back at the people who are well adjusted and basically happy, but the only thing they have the power to do, is band together with the rest of the miserable losers in the country and elect their chosen stick in the eye of the people they resent.

They'll show us, by God. They'll teach us to think we're so smart and to be such do-gooders.

They'll make the rest of society as unhappy and miserable as they are.

From an economic perspective, if someone is going to shop doesn't it make sense they would do it when there are sales? Not that rich people don't like to save money but no rich people (or very very few) are going to wake up at 5:00am and sit in line with hundreds of people to rush in for sales. But for people for whom that savings is the difference between being able to afford something or not, it means everything and they are willing to deal with the crowds.

 

[Nomad]

From an economic perspective, if someone is going to shop doesn't it make sense they would do it when there are sales? Not that rich people don't like to save money but no rich people (or very very few) are going to wake up at 5:00am and sit in line with hundreds of people to rush in for sales. But for people for whom that savings is the difference between being able to afford something or not, it means everything and they are willing to deal with the crowds.

Just because something is on sale doesn't make it a) affordable/a good deal or b) a necessary expense, especially when you're bitching to anyone who'll listen about how high taxes/grocery prices are making it impossible for you to get by. It's the hypocrisy. People waste their money on things that are not necessary then piss and moan that their taxes are too high/their wages are too low/groceries etc are too expensive. The concept of sacrificing and doing without expensive gadgets and toys and putting money aside instead, never occurs to them.

I once not long ago, had someone on a forum (Gen XYZer) tell me that he felt he shouldn't have to sacrifice anything. He wanted to have and do everything he wanted without having to work hard or wait until he was older and financially established.

That's the current mentality.

Gimme gimme gimme.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So, if these supposed faults of progressives aren’t really why Harris lost, why are center-left Democrats so fixated on them? For three reasons. The first one (and what I suspect is really driving most of the left-bashing) is that the center-left Democratic establishment wants to shift blame for a painful election defeat that by most objective measures is almost entirely the establishment’s fault.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/12/05/centrist-progressive-democrats-election-recriminations-blame/

"Centrist democrats.." Massive oxymoron.

BWAHAHAHAHA

 

[cawacko]

I think that completely misses the point.

I can't speak for trumpers, but I doubt many if any of the more reasonable and rational minded moderates of either party think that all trans people are pedophiles. I know I don't.

As I said earlier, what people seem to be against is normalizing certain things.

We were all brought up in a world where, in public spaces men and women use separate restrooms. Why? Mainly because most girls and women are not anywhere near comfortable with the idea of a man in the same restroom as them, much less taking a dump in the adjacent toilet stall while they're changing a tampon. Put yourself in their position.

How there are people who are just too obtuse or one-sided to get that just baffles me.

But beyond that, the idea that extremist left-wing trans-huggers want to dissolve any and all lines that separate men from women is just something that's too far of a reach for most people.

Myself included.

Why does being against some strange man being allowed to take a shit next to one's wife or daughter in the restroom at The Olive Garden make one a "transphobe"? I think you're prone to jump to a conclusion or two.

Well on that we agree completely. And it's another thing I've been saying for years.

People on the right bitch about their taxes being so high they can barely afford to live.... supposedly. Come Black Friday, they're lined up around the building at Best Buy, ready to plunk down a thousand bucks for the latest iPhone. Or people on both sides who cry about food prices then jump at the chance to plunk down hundreds of dollars to see Garth Brooks or Taylor Swift in concert. Or whatever.

I'm convinced that the reason why trumpers are trumpers is multifold.

First, there's the shared sense of contempt. They have nothing but contempt for decency and they see that same contempt reflected in trump. He has contempt for all the same people and things that they have contempt for.

Then there's the revenge factor. Most of these people are dissatisfied with where they are in life. They think they should be rich and powerful and able to tell other people what to do and what religion to believe in and make them stay in their own country, etc, etc.... but in reality they are nobodies. Their lives suck and are full of misery and failure. So they want to get back at the people who are well adjusted and basically happy, but the only thing they have the power to do, is band together with the rest of the miserable losers in the country and elect their chosen stick in the eye of the people they resent.

They'll show us, by God. They'll teach us to think we're so smart and to be such do-gooders.

They'll make the rest of society as unhappy and miserable as they are.

I'd add this as well. There's a certain percentage of the population (this board has a high percentage of it) that will vote every election and they will vote for whomever their party's candidate is. That's just how it works. (I suppose there are others like me, I haven't voted for Trump once but I also didn't vote for the Democrat either, but we're probably not a large number.)

Then you have a portion of the population that don't always vote regularly and have voted for people from both parties. My guess is a fair number of these folks aren't political ideologues. They aren't the type to spend their time on political message boards "fighting" on behalf of their political party like we do. And there's a good chance the state of the economy (or how they feel about it) is at, or close to, the top of their list for how they vote.

And Presidents get way more credit, and blame, than they deserve for the state of the economy but that's how the world works. We judge them based on their time in office. And while Harris wasn't President, she was a part of the administration and on the campaign trail choose to fully support everything the Biden Administration did (she stated she wouldn't have changed anything), so it was a proxy on her. And inflation is a killer. People don't like and it makes them feel poorer. It helped knock out Ford and it knocked out Carter. It now knocked out Harris.

 

[IBDaMann]

Time for dems to get a new party.

... and they're going MAGA.

Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Tulsi Gabbard and Robert F. Kennedy are just a few of the many lifelong Democrats who were effectively forced out of the Democrat party by the Marxists who have taken control.

 

[cawacko]

Name 5 current Democrat members of Congress who are "Centrists."

Criteria might include--since this should be at least somewhat measurable:

Votes 30 +% of the time with other party on legislation, or at least votes with the other party on a regular basis.
Sponsors bi-partisan legislation that was initiated by the other party.
Regularly holds views that are in difference to their party's leadership in whole or part.

Out of curiosity does anyone in Congress meet that criteria?

 

[BartenderElite]

Woke's heart is in the right place (as opposed to MAGA, who seem to have no heart whatsoever on LGBTQ issues in particular).

But, they tried to make changes too fast. Most Americans aren't ready for that. It's gotta be gradual, which may seem sad, but that's how it's always been. Same w/ race.

 

[Althea]

I think that completely misses the point.

Everyone is entitled to their own views on any issue. Whereas I'm no expert on the topic, I'm pretty sure there are no urinals in a woman's bathroom. The privacy in a woman's bathroom is much better than in a men's bathroom. So I'm a bit perplexed re. your belief that a trans 'woman' would walk into a bathroom, and 'flop his dick out'? Many who argue the bathroom issue cite their daughter being exposed to a man in the bathroom. Unless she's peeking under the stall, I don't see the issue. It must be due to the belief that trans women are pedophiles.

My problem with men competing against women is exactly that though. Women are being unfairly subjected to having men in the locker rooms. Say nothing of the issues during competition.

Those who tolerate trans men/women do so out of decency and politeness. That doesn't mean that these people don't look like idiots in many cases. Some cannot even be recognized as trans. Quite frankly, many are less obvious than some in the gay community. Are you saying that moderates would vote for trump because they don't like 'all the gays being so obvious in public'?

When your son/daughter decides to color their hair green, you support them but deep down you shake your head at the fact that they look like morons. That doesn't mean that you don't support them through the phase they are going through. When my mid/late 40s buddy transitioned decades ago before it was mainstream, he looked like a fucking moron. Still, when I had to interact with him I fought back the laughter and acted as if there was nothing weird about his decision.

But we're straying. I'll grant you that everything you claim about the trans community is valid. I refuse to believe that moderate Dems, who are far more intelligent than any MAGA voter, or even most who vote Republican because...guns...would hand the balance of power over to a group of incompetent Russian operatives over LGBTQ issues.

I just can't get there, but we don't need to waste keystrokes on this anymore.