Centrist Democrats should stop blaming progressives for Harris’s loss

[T. A. Gardner]

Out of curiosity does anyone in Congress meet that criteria?

Probably not. That is one of our nation's bigger problems I'd think.

 

[Althea]

Woke's heart is in the right place (as opposed to MAGA, who seem to have no heart whatsoever on LGBTQ issues in particular).

But, they tried to make changes too fast. Most Americans aren't ready for that. It's gotta be gradual, which may seem sad, but that's how it's always been. Same w/ race.

Can you explain what was done too fast? And isn't an issue of human rights just too fucking bad for those who don't agree?

From what I see, the rush to grant rights is often due to violence and discrimination against a class of people.

 

[Althea]

I have to wonder what these moderate anti trans Dems. think that trump is going to do to make them stop whatever it is that they are doing?

Even this rogue Supreme Court would be hard pressed to stop people from being who they are in public.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Woke's heart is in the right place (as opposed to MAGA, who seem to have no heart whatsoever on LGBTQ issues in particular).

The Woke are the people Orwell warned us about in 1984.

But, they tried to make changes too fast. Most Americans aren't ready for that. It's gotta be gradual, which may seem sad, but that's how it's always been. Same w/ race.

The Left forces change, it doesn't make it on consensus or popularity.

I've seen this firsthand since at least the 1980's.

Remember gay marriage? That was in the early 2000's. The Left was putting it on the ballot for a democratic vote. They managed to get it on the ballot in 35 states. It was voted down in all 35, including California!

The Left said they'd respect the will of the people and the outcome of elections on this. What did they do when their initiatives were shot down by often wide margins repeatedly? The same thing they always do.

They said the public were morons and fools, bigots and haters and that they wouldn't stop until gay marriage was legal. That bullshit they spewed about democracy and respecting the will of the people was a bunch of lying bullshit, just like it always is with them. The Left then went to court and got unelected judges, often highly biased ones, to side with them and overturn the election results and force gay marriage on the states.

That's how the Left rolls. They see dictatorships as a good and necessary thing. They think their dictatorships are virtuous and for the good of the people no matter how many dead bodies they have to pile up to get their way.

 

[BartenderElite]

The Woke are the people Orwell warned us about in 1984.


The Left forces change, it doesn't make it on consensus or popularity.

I've seen this firsthand since at least the 1980's.

Remember gay marriage? That was in the early 2000's. The Left was putting it on the ballot for a democratic vote. They managed to get it on the ballot in 35 states. It was voted down in all 35, including California!

The Left said they'd respect the will of the people and the outcome of elections on this. What did they do when their initiatives were shot down by often wide margins repeatedly? The same thing they always do.

They said the public were morons and fools, bigots and haters and that they wouldn't stop until gay marriage was legal. That bullshit they spewed about democracy and respecting the will of the people was a bunch of lying bullshit, just like it always is with them. The Left then went to court and got unelected judges, often highly biased ones, to side with them and overturn the election results and force gay marriage on the states.

That's how the Left rolls. They see dictatorships as a good and necessary thing. They think their dictatorships are virtuous and for the good of the people no matter how many dead bodies they have to pile up to get their way.

Well, now you're talking about tyranny of the majority.

But, it's candid at least.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Well, now you're talking about tyranny of the majority.

But, it's candid at least.

They asked for a popular vote on it 35 times and lost 35 times. You've repeatedly said you'd like to see Presidents elected by popular vote and the electoral college eliminated. I guess you are all for a tyranny of the majority so long as the majority agrees with you. That is what the Left wants and does.

 

[BartenderElite]

Can you explain what was done too fast? And isn't an issue of human rights just too fucking bad for those who don't agree?

From what I see, the rush to grant rights is often due to violence and discrimination against a class of people.

Really, transgender rights and everything related to that.

I believe in equal rights for everyone, and no discrimination based on anything LGBTQ. However, there are legit debates to be made about something like sports.

All of it was too much, too fast for the American public. And we can say too bad if you don't disagree - but it likely leads to election losses.

 

[BartenderElite]

They asked for a popular vote on it 35 times and lost 35 times. You've repeatedly said you'd like to see Presidents elected by popular vote and the electoral college eliminated. I guess you are all for a tyranny of the majority so long as the majority agrees with you. That is what the Left wants and does.

False equivalency. Rights are rights. Some rights are inherent - and shouldn't be decided by a vote.

That relates not at all to a President winning by the popular vote. That's a terrible, irrelevant comparison.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

False equivalency. Rights are rights. Some rights are inherent - and shouldn't be decided by a vote.

That relates not at all to a President winning by the popular vote. That's a terrible, irrelevant comparison.

Marriage is not a "right." Doesn't matter what kind of marriage it is, it isn't a "right." If it were a right, then polygamy and any other form of it would be legal too.

Of course it does. Doing something by popular vote is doing something by popular vote.

You are just showing the same sort of If I don't like the outcome of an election, I should be able to void and change it.

 

[cawacko]

Probably not. That is one of our nation's bigger problems I'd think.

You go back 50 plus years and there were actually some liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats, today not so much. And with the gerrymandering in the House you get a number of safe seats so that the potential competition for the seat isn't from the other party but from getting primaried. That eliminates any desire to be more moderate or work in a bi-partisan way.

 

[BartenderElite]

Marriage is not a "right." Doesn't matter what kind of marriage it is, it isn't a "right." If it were a right, then polygamy and any other form of it would be legal too.

Of course it does. Doing something by popular vote is doing something by popular vote.

You are just showing the same sort of If I don't like the outcome of an election, I should be able to void and change it.

Equal rights are equal rights.

Not allowing homosexuals to marry is discriminatory.

Should all basic human rights be decided by a vote in each state?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

You go back 50 plus years and there were actually some liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats, today not so much. And with the gerrymandering in the House you get a number of safe seats so that the potential competition for the seat isn't from the other party but from getting primaried. That eliminates any desire to be more moderate or work in a bi-partisan way.

It isn't "gerrymandering." It is the Democrats have pushed their party to the hard Left and the Republicans have followed suit and pushed Right more. There is no middle ground, and both parties are pushing out the few that might be there (Liz Cheney and Krysten Sinema as two examples).

 

[cawacko]

It isn't "gerrymandering." It is the Democrats have pushed their party to the hard Left and the Republicans have followed suit and pushed Right more. There is no middle ground, and both parties are pushing out the few that might be there (Liz Cheney and Krysten Sinema as two examples).

I'd argue the more competitive the district the more difficult it is to be on the far left or far right. Look at the Squad and Freedom Caucus. They are all in "safe" districts - heavily conservative or heavily liberal.

To your point, look at Manchin and how Democrats hated him (and wanted him primaried as if someone more liberal would get elected in WV). And with Repubicans many hate Susan Collins (and want her primaried as if Maine is going to choose someone more conservative).

Speaking as a Republican look how many are talking about wanting to primary a bunch of our own Senators in red states for not being #MAGA enough. We are going to struggle in 2026 to hold on to Congress yet people want to spend money and time trying to primary a bunch of sitting representatives. Perfect example of why people don't want to seen working in a bi-partisan manner.

 

[Nomad]

Everyone is entitled to their own views on any issue. Whereas I'm no expert on the topic, I'm pretty sure there are no urinals in a woman's bathroom. The privacy in a woman's bathroom is much better than in a men's bathroom. So I'm a bit perplexed re. your belief that a trans 'woman' would walk into a bathroom, and 'flop his dick out'?

No, I said that if a straight man cannot walk into a woman's restroom and flop his dick out, then neither should a trans "woman", which "she'd" have to do at some point if "she" doesn't want to piss in "her" pants. Plus, you're just assuming these people straight or trans, will close the stall door out of politeness, but eventually some won't and incidents will result.

My point was that once you open the door to any biological male going into women's restrooms just because they decided all they had to do if caught is claim they identify as female, then you've opened the door for every kind of pervert and weirdo to enter private enclosures where females are in various stages of undress, which no normal rational person wants.

Many who argue the bathroom issue cite their daughter being exposed to a man in the bathroom. Unless she's peeking under the stall, I don't see the issue. It must be due to the belief that trans women are pedophiles.

Again, you're assuming all the biological males who enter the restrooms because it became legal for them to do so, are legitimately trans. I repeat, some will just falsely claim they identify as women in order to get a free pass into an enclosed space where women and girls are in some stage of undress.

My problem with men competing against women is exactly that though. Women are being unfairly subjected to having men in the locker rooms. Say nothing of the issues during competition.

Some years ago, there was the issue of male athletes being subjected to having women sports reporters in the locker room where they had traditionally felt free to walk around in the nude. No equal rights progressives uttered a peep when some men complained about it.

Then there was the Zeke Mowatt incident in which he exposed himself to a female reporter and got charged with sexual harassment.

But if female athletes should not have to be subjected to the presence of men in locker rooms, women and girls in public restrooms shouldn't be either.

And straight male athletes shouldn't be subjected to having female reporters in their locker rooms.

But we all know in today's world, women's career pursuits are more important than men's right to privacy.

Those who tolerate trans men/women do so out of decency and politeness. That doesn't mean that these people don't look like idiots in many cases. Some cannot even be recognized as trans. Quite frankly, many are less obvious than some in the gay community. Are you saying that moderates would vote for trump because they don't like 'all the gays being so obvious in public'?

I'm saying that some middle of the road/undecided/independent voters feel strongly enough or are so sick and tired of hearing about these people and their petty, exaggerated, drama queen problems, that they'd vote for trump out of spite or leave that part of the ballot blank.

When your son/daughter decides to color their hair green, you support them but deep down you shake your head at the fact that they look like morons. That doesn't mean that you don't support them through the phase they are going through. When my mid/late 40s buddy transitioned decades ago before it was mainstream, he looked like a fucking moron. Still, when I had to interact with him I fought back the laughter and acted as if there was nothing weird about his decision.

Well of course people will support family members or people they're friends with. That doesn't necessarily translate into random strangers.

Why should I support people I've never met or even seen before being allowed to go into women's restrooms?

But we're straying. I'll grant you that everything you claim about the trans community is valid. I refuse to believe that moderate Dems, who are far more intelligent than any MAGA voter, or even most who vote Republican because...guns...would hand the balance of power over to a group of incompetent Russian operatives over LGBTQ issues.

I just can't get there, but we don't need to waste keystrokes on this anymore.

There's a lot of different kinds of people in the world with all kinds of different motivations.

But again, it's more than just "LGBTQ issues". It's the direction in which trans people and their ardent supporters seem to want to push society society, that some moderates are siding with conservatives against.

That's what I believe, anyway.

 

[Nomad]

Can you explain what was done too fast? And isn't an issue of human rights just too fucking bad for those who don't agree?

From what I see, the rush to grant rights is often due to violence and discrimination against a class of people.

Pretty much just name an issue.

Demanding to be able to use women's restrooms especially in public schools which I failed to address in the last post. Exposing children to drag queens. Forcing others to use certain pronouns.

One silliness after another.

I have to wonder what these moderate anti trans Dems. think that trump is going to do to make them stop whatever it is that they are doing?

I'm guessing that under trump there won't be any laws allowing dudes who call themselves women to walk into women's public restrooms and flop their dicks out.

One of those "silver linings".

Even this rogue Supreme Court would be hard pressed to stop people from being who they are in public.

Nobody is suggesting that they should be stopped from being who they are in public.

Just in women's public restrooms.

I cannot understand why that is so difficult for some people to grasp.

 

[Althea]

Really, transgender rights and everything related to that.

I believe in equal rights for everyone, and no discrimination based on anything LGBTQ. However, there are legit debates to be made about something like sports.

All of it was too much, too fast for the American public. And we can say too bad if you don't disagree - but it likely leads to election losses.

We're on the same page re. rights and a caveat re. sports.

I just cannot fathom a choice between taking a path to destroying democracy in exchange for shutting up those deemed to be strange people?

 

[Althea]

But again, it's more than just "LGBTQ issues". It's the direction in which trans people and their ardent supporters seem to want to push society society, that some moderates are siding with conservatives against.

That's what I believe, anyway.

So I would ask anyone who took this option what they think that trump can legally do to make them happy?

 

[Althea]

Pretty much just name an issue.

Demanding to be able to use women's restrooms especially in public schools which I failed to address in the last post. Exposing children to drag queens. Forcing others to use certain pronouns.

One silliness after another.

I'm guessing that under trump there won't be any laws allowing dudes who call themselves women to walk into women's public restrooms and flop their dicks out.

One of those "silver linings".

Nobody is suggesting that they should be stopped from being who they are in public.

Just in women's public restrooms.

I cannot understand why that is so difficult for some people to grasp.

So why isn't there a campaign to keep lesbians out of women's rooms, for fear of sexual attacks?

 

[Nomad]

So I would ask anyone who took this option what they think that trump can legally do to make them happy?

First of all, to be clear, I'm not rooting for trump or for him to do anything on this or any issue. But I would say that what voting for trump by undecided, non partisan, non party affiliated voters uncomfortable with all that stuff might accomplish in their minds and in fact, is to lodge a protest and to stop government from encouraging the progression of society towards what they see as an unacceptable point.

So why isn't there a campaign to keep lesbians out of women's rooms, for fear of sexual attacks?

Because that's a pretty absurd comparison for several reasons.

First of all, lesbians are women so they have the legal right to use women's restrooms. And obviously you can't tell if someone is a lesbian by looking at them, while it's more difficult for most men to pass themselves off as women. Plus, there is not much of a history of lesbians sexually assaulting women. Certainly not anywhere near the history of men assaulting women. And women are not uncomfortable being in a restroom with other women even if they might know those women are lesbians. Very few women want to be in a public restroom with a biological male.

But all that aside, and again... I think it's more about not allowing this issue to move forward or sweep through society and about preventing the normalization of these gender issues than it is about a handful of specific reasons regarding public safety, etc. Those reasons pose legitimate concerns but I think there's a larger issue driving people's voting decisions.

A lot of people do not want our country to become a place where there is no longer a distinction between men and women or, more importantly, boys and girls. Because all of this restroom stuff would occur at the public school level, too. And then you'd be talking about exposing girls... children... to being in restrooms with immature adolescent boys who might attempt God only knows what.

 

[goat]

And you believe that trump will stand up to Israel?

I told you why the DNC is doomed and all you can say is but but Trump.