Challenging Hume to a Debate #2 - Physics of the Global Warming Faith : Is Greenhouse Effect Even Possible?

[Into the Night]

The fact that the present surface temperature of the earth is about 30degC higher than the earth's blackbody temperature says greenhouse gases work as advertised.

Not a fact. Learn what 'fact' means. It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth. There is no 'should be'. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law and the 1st law of thermodynamics again.

This is not even a question anymore. We've literally known how greenhouse gases work for about 150 years now.

Circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism). Denial of science.

They are very very close to equal. It's more about delaying the escaping IR photons.

There is no sequence. You cannot trap light. You cannot set aside the Stefan-Boltzmann law for ANY length of time.

Nope. But then I've spent about 3-4 years solid working with an IR spectrometer and seeing how indoor air absorbs IR.

You cannot trap light. You are ignoring the radiance of air. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law and the 2nd law of thermodynamics again.

The fact of the matter is O2 and N2 do not have a dipole moment (they are two identical atoms attached, so no dipole) so they cannot absorb IR.

All materials can absorb infrared light.

Then you'll be able to explain how molecules with no dipole moment are capable of this feat.

All materials absorb infrared light. The Stefan-Boltzmann law has no 'materials' factor. You are also now ignoring Planck's law.

Maybe you'll show me the absorption bands for O2 and N2.

All materials absorb infrared light.

Wouldn't you have to know some science before you can tell what is or isn't violating science?

DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR DENIAL OF SCIENCE ON ANYBODY ELSE!

 

[Into the Night]

Sorry, Into the Night, not interested in the schtick today.

You misdirected your post. Bulverism fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

As I suspected: you can neither explain how molecules lacking a dipole moment can absorb IR nor can you show me the absorption spectra.

Another easy win for me! Thanks! I'm liking the wins today. It's especially fun when the opponent just throws in the towel as you just did.

He doesn't have to. All materials absorb infrared light and convert that into thermal energy.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes or no does the impact of the Earth's atmosphere impact temperatures to make it habitable?

"The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere". I already have that quote, Void.

 

[Into the Night]

So, if the earth had no atmosphere, nothing would change in regard to high and low temperature at any given position on the planet?

Earth's temperature remains the same. No gas or vapor has the capability to create energy out of nothing.

 

[ZenMode]

Earth's temperature remains the same. No gas or vapor has the capability to create energy out of nothing.

Ha ha ha

The funny part is that you claim to be all about science.

You're either a troll, retarded or a liar.

 

[Into the Night]

If the earth had NO atmosphere OR if the earth had an atmosphere that was ONLY made up of N2 and O2 (or any gases lacking a dipole moment) the temperature of the earth would be the blackbody radiation temperature as the sun's UV hits the surface and re-radiates back out as down-shifted IR photons.

Absorb UV light does not convert to thermal energy.
There is no such thing as 'blackbody radiation temperature'. You are denying the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.

Stefan Boltzmann is merely a means of showing the blackbody temperature and comparing with the actual surface temperature and it is clear something ELSE is in the mix.

That something else is greenhouse gases.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law does not calculate temperature. You are denying the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.

 

[Into the Night]

I don't understand that question. Since greenhouse gases account for the fact that the earth's surface temp is something like 30degC higher than blackbody radiation temp of the earth without greenhouse gases it's hard to answer your strangely worded question.

There is no 'should be'. There is no such thing as 'blackbody radiation temperature'. The Stefan-Boltzmann law does not calculate temperature. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law and statistical mathematics again.

 

[Into the Night]

Ha ha ha

The funny part is that you claim to be all about science.

You're either a troll, retarded or a liar.

Inversion fallacy. DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR RELIGION ON ME OR ANYBODY ELSE!

 

[Into the Night]

CO2 exists in the atmosphere.

Good. CO2 is absolutely essential for life to exist on Earth.

So, when discussing whether or not CO2, or other gases, can increase temperature,

You can't create energy out of nothing. You are ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics again.

it helps to start with an acknowledgement that CO2 and other atmospheric gases currently do impact temperatures.

Word games won't work, Void.

You seem unwilling to acknowledge that, even though we both know it's true.

So, do we agree that the Earth's atmosphere, which includes several gases including CO2, does impact temperature on Earth. If we didn't have an atmosphere, the highs would be much higher and the lows would be much lower, right?

Word games won't work, Void.

 

[Into the Night]

So you don't know how to use Stefan-Boltzmann? Sorry to hear that.

DON'T BLAME IBDAMANN OR ANYBODY ELSE FOR YOUR PROBLEM!

 

[Into the Night]

Except everything I've said is stuff you can find on any given earth systems science website like those from Columbia University etc.

But I'm sure that the earth's scientists simply don't know as much as you do. Yet, ironically, you don't seem to know anything about this topic.

You don't get to speak for everyone. Omniscience fallacy.
Science is not a website, title, or university.

I have already given you the equations for the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law. You just want to ignore them.

 

[Into the Night]

My point being that ACTUAL EXPERTS say the stuff I posted.

Unlike the bizarro counter-factual stuff you spout. In fact only YOU, Into the Night and GFM seem to hold the unique beliefs you have. And strangely enough NONE OF YOU KNOW ANY SCIENCE. It's amazing how that works.



LOL. Son, I've FORGOTTEN more earth science than you ever knew. LOLOLOL.

'Expert' worship. Science is not a university, title, or website.
You are simply ignoring science.

Earth is not a theory of science.

 

[Into the Night]

I deleted my last response because getting your to acknowledge incredibly simple truths is dragging this out far too long.

So, let's just skip to a

• The Earth's atmosphere absolutely impacts temperatures on Earth. Without an atmosphere, we'd all be dead because the temperature swings would be so extreme.

Earth's temperature remains the same with or without an atmosphere. Attempted proof by pivot.

• The energy from the Sun is different form than the energy leaving the Earth

Nope. They are both light.

• The Earth's atmosphere limits the amount of the Sun's energy that gets to the Earth's surface, which also limits the high temperatures.

The atmosphere has no intelligence. Homunculus fallacy.

• The atmosphere also slows how quickly energy leaves the earth's surface, back into space, which is why the low temperatures aren't as low as they'd be otherwise.

There is no sequence. You cannot set aside the Stefan-Boltzmann law for ANY length of time.
* You cannot trap light.
* You cannot trap heat.
* You cannot trap thermal energy. There is always heat.

What, that I bulleted above, do you disagree with.

RQAA

 

[Into the Night]

Ya know, after a while this sort of schtick really grates. I mean it's not even clever or insightful, it's just literally screaming "Nuh huh!" after someone says something.

Does this sort of shitposting (which you surely MUST know is a joke) really get you off? Ewww.

You could always stop, you know.

 

[Into the Night]

Yeah, you're really boring. Try switching it up and try actually understanding the science.

BTW: I'm still waiting on you to show me the IR absorption bands for N2 and O2.

I already posted the theories of science you are denying.

 

[Into the Night]

More avoidance.

Inversion fallacy.

It also wouldn't NOT imply a change. You cannot rule out that changes to the composition of the Earth's atmosphere wouldn't impact temperature. You may not want to believe it could, or be willing to admit it could, but you cannot rule it out.

Pivot fallacy.

Venus is further from the Sun than Mercury, yet Venus' average temperature (800 degrees) is more than double that of Mercury (350 degrees). Why? Because Mercury has NO atmosphere, so the temperature swings are extreme, where as Venus has an atmosphere made up of 96% CO2 so the "greenhouse effect" has a significant impact on energy escaping the surface/atmosphere into space.

You cannot trap light. You are ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law again.
The temperature of Venus is unknown. It cannot be measured.
The temperature of Mercury is unknown. It cannot be measured.
The temperature of Earth is unknown. It cannot be measured.

You are ignoring statistical math again.

 

[Into the Night]

Clearly you don't want to have an honest conversation. Anything inconvenient to your position you discard without responding. The funny thing is that you treat your opinion, which supports what you WANT to believe, as though it's fact and write off anything that doesn't support what you want to believe.

I don't use Wikipedia. Information about planets is readily available from many sources.

It is not possible to measure the temperature of any planet.

 

[ZenMode]

So, do we agree that the Earth's atmosphere, which includes several gases including CO2, does impact temperature on Earth. If we didn't have an atmosphere, the highs would be much higher and the lows would be much lower, right?"

Word games won't work, Void.

So, basic statements about planetary atmosphere's impact on temperatures is "word games".

 

[Into the Night]

Tell the class in 17 words that you don't understand the topic.

gfm7175 does understand the topic quite well. DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR ILLITERACY ON GFM7175 OR ANYBODY ELSE!