Chavez Belittles Opposition Win: Vows to Pursue Constitutional Reform

[blackascoal]

Because you made it about me. When you used my name and suggested that I was an example of what you were talking about.

I am sorry that I like to correct misconceptions about what I personally think when you personally name me. But I will bet that if I started suggesting opinions for you that were simply incorrect you would do the same.

I haven't yet gotten "upset" with you for pointing out problems. I simply asked some questions then gave a different view. Then pointed out that while I can see that same problem that I would begin by seeking first what is right and building on that foundation when seeking a solution.

While doing that I even brought up places where "the right" as a group were wrong and had gone off track. I pointed out how it often didn't even fit in with "the right's" usual view of things and how I wished they had stuck more to that.

Of course I used them to contrast to how I believe, but that was because you used me, yes by name, as an example of what you were saying "the right" believes.

I could have and perhaps should have better stated the point I was making without specifically using your name, and for that I apologize .. but my point remains the same regarding pointing fingers at other nations and leaders without looking in the mirror FIRST.

My point remains the same about the chaos that has been ushered in and driven by the right.

My point remains the same about introspective.

 

[Battleborne]

LMAO................

This thread has become...the classic...'He said-she said'...bottom line Communism/Socialism just plain sucks...Castro and Chavez are mongrels and parasites to be eliminated...end of story!

 

[Damocles]

I could have and perhaps should have better stated the point I was making without specifically using your name, and for that I apologize .. but my point remains the same regarding pointing fingers at other nations and leaders without looking in the mirror FIRST.

My point remains the same about the chaos that has been ushered in and driven by the right.

My point remains the same about introspective.

I, personally, don't point fingers at other nations. I don't care about Venezuela or Cuba. I do love when people try to make Cuba look like a paradise when the actual fact is that people leave there in droves desperate to make it here. Sometimes floating on car doors they are so desperate to get out.

There is something very wrong there. But it isn't my place to fix it. I think that Castro would long have been gone if we hadn't started in on the "sanctions" which constantly backfire. I hate when the US uses sanctions, it simply cements the power of the people we are supposedly "punishing". It makes the populace even less able to fight against what they may think is tyranny (and by the amount that leave and the sentiment of those who get here clearly they often do in large enough numbers to have such desperate action be a regular occurrence).

I don't ignore issues with the US. It is preposterous to say that all of any group does. There are people on my side who see the same things I do. In fact, even among republicans (not all of the "leaning-right" by a long shot) Bush isn't very popular, it seems even they see some of the same problems we do.

 

[blackascoal]

I have many times.

If we had to start from scratch each time we attempted to solve something math itself would never have gotten past multiplication and the "discovery" of zero.

Seriously, when finding solutions it is best to build on what is right. It is applicable and used every day in many lives in thousands of different contexts. Viewing the world from the "solution" side rather than dwelling solely in the "problem" side is simply a different view. It doesn't ignore the problems, it focuses on what to do about them.

Microsoft seeks a solution to a "Problem" in their software, they don't rewrite the whole thing, they make a solution based on what is already there.

The ONLY way software problems are fixed is by looking at the PROBLEMS .. point blank, period. If a system crashes, I don't spend 5 seconds thinking about what's good about the software, I fix the problems.

If you're a student, you don't become a better student by dwelling on your good grades in gym class if you're getting failing grades in math. You deal with your math problems.

If you're an athlete, you don't become a better athlete by focusing only on what you do well, you must also focus on what needs to be improved.

America is that system that is crashing and if we aren't mature enough to look at the problems, nothing gets fixed, point blank, period.

 

[Damocles]

The ONLY way software problems are fixed is by looking at the PROBLEMS .. point blank, period. If a system crashes, I don't spend 5 seconds thinking about what's good about the software, I fix the problems.

If you're a student, you don't become a better student by dwelling on your good grades in gym class if you're getting failing grades in math. You deal with your math problems.

If you're an athlete, you don't become a better athlete by focusing only on what you do well, you must also focus on what needs to be improved.

America is that system that is crashing and if we aren't mature enough to look at the problems, nothing gets fixed, point blank, period.

And one more time. Instead of only pointing out problems they seek solutions, and when doing that they build on what is right. They do not start over.

And if you want to be a better student, you build on habits that get you good grades, you don't attempt to begin your education over from kindergarten.

 

[blackascoal]

I, personally, don't point fingers at other nations. I don't care about Venezuela or Cuba. I do love when people try to make Cuba look like a paradise when the actual fact is that people leave there in droves desperate to make it here. Sometimes floating on car doors they are so desperate to get out.

There is something very wrong there. But it isn't my place to fix it. I think that Castro would long have been gone if we hadn't started in on the "sanctions" which constantly backfire. I hate when the US uses sanctions, it simply cements the power of the people we are supposedly "punishing". It makes the populace even less able to fight against what they may think is tyranny (and by the amount that leave and the sentiment of those who get here clearly they often do in large enough numbers to have such desperate action be a regular occurrence).

I don't ignore issues with the US. It is preposterous to say that all of any group does. There are people on my side who see the same things I do. In fact, even among republicans (not all of the "leaning-right" by a long shot) Bush isn't very popular, it seems even they see some of the same problems we do.

You don't point fingers at Cuba or Venezuela but there are many here that do and I hold up the mirror when they do.

Without US sanctions, many of those floating here on car doors wouldn't be doing it .. so the fact that some come here for the magical streets lined with gold is not surprising nor all that telling .. especially when you look at the make-up of those who float here.

The US terrorizes Latin America .. is that relevant? Should that be ignored or the fact that we train terrorists to murder innocent people in Latin America? The right will boast about cubans coming here to "escape", but they won't tell you about how we've trained and supported legions of demons to murder, rape, and torture throughout Latin America.

The CIA has intervened in Venezuela and AGAIN tried to overthrow yet another democratically elected leader, and one who has done great things for his people at the expense of corporate profits and his own wealth and safety. Is that relevant in any discussion about the evils of Chavez?

The CIA has a long and sordid histroy of that behavior. Is that relevant in discussions of our failed foreign policy and how we got to the decline of America?

I'm frankly fed the fuck up with our head in the sand cheerleading of failed and disastrous policy. At what point do we grow up as a nation and deal with our PROBLEMS without attacking those who speak the absolute truth about who we are? .. Not suggesting you.

There is something very wrong HERE and we don't solve it by looking out the window at what's wrong somewhere else.

 

[Annie]

And one more time. Instead of only pointing out problems they seek solutions, and when doing that they build on what is right. They do not start over.

And if you want to be a better student, you build on habits that get you good grades, you don't attempt to begin your education over from kindergarten.

I agree. Sometimes those of us that are so political/current events interested can become very jaded, especially while on venues like messageboards. We tend to argue in 'absolutist terms' for agreeing with 'the enemy' is to give up a win.

On the other hand, in real life, I have many liberal friends, heck 2 of my kids are quite of that 'bent.' I do plenty of volunteer work, with both county and church sponsored food efforts. Guess what? There are both Democrats, Liberals, even a few atheists and considering I live in Wheaton, it just proves we can 'all get along,' or at least those of us that do try to utilize our better natures.

Wheaton is the county seat of DuPage County, Illinois, located about 25 miles west of Chicago and Lake Michigan. As of the 2000 census, the city had a total population of 55,416.

The city dates its founding to land claims made in 1837 and 1838 (following the Indian Removal Act) by Erastus Gary and two Wheaton brothers, Jesse and Warren. A plat for the city was filed with the county in 1853. The brothers led a successful campaign in 1867 to make Wheaton the county seat[1].

Wheaton has 45 churches within its limits (not to mention thirty in the bordering unincorporated areas) and is rumored to have more churches per square mile than any other U.S. city, a density exceeded in the world only by one or more cities in Italy.

Once one recognizes that there are way more good people than bad, one can begin to visualize and work towards making things better. To begin with a 'tear down' mentality, is regressing in a Hobbesian scenario.

 

[blackascoal]

And one more time. Instead of only pointing out problems they seek solutions, and when doing that they build on what is right. They do not start over.

And if you want to be a better student, you build on habits that get you good grades, you don't attempt to begin your education over from kindergarten.

When have you ever heard me suggest, state, imply, or even slightly intimate that we should start over?

Solutions are found in looking at PROBLEMS .. I'm confused as why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

Starting over? .. Not sure where that came from.

 

[Damocles]

You don't point fingers at Cuba or Venezuela but there are many here that do and I hold up the mirror when they do.

Without US sanctions, many of those floating here on car doors wouldn't be doing it .. so the fact that some come here for the magical streets lined with gold is not surprising nor all that telling .. especially when you look at the make-up of those who float here.

You are repeating what I said. Just in different words. I don't think they'd be floating here because I don't think Castro would still be in power. The "sanctions" are not very successful, almost all other nations trade with them.

The US terrorizes Latin America .. is that relevant? Should that be ignored or the fact that we train terrorists to murder innocent people in Latin America? The right will boats about Cubans coming here to "escape", but they won't tell you about how we've trained and supported legions of demons to murder, rape, and torture throughout Latin America.

The CIA has intervened in Venezuela and AGAIN tried to overthrow yet another democratically elected leader, and one who has done great things for his people at the expense of corporate profits and his own wealth and safety. Is that relevant in any discussion about the evils of Chavez?

Of course it is, it backfired hugely and created the "I smell brimstone" Chavez that we know and love today.

The CIA has a long and sordid history of that behavior. Is that relevant in discussions of our failed foreign policy and how we got to the decline of America?

I'm frankly fed the fuck up with our head in the sand cheerleading of failed and disastrous policy. At what point do we grow up as a nation and deal with our PROBLEMS without attacking those who speak the absolute truth about who we are? .. Not suggesting you.

Yeah, I read the Ugly American too. We will do that as soon as the politicians on both sides are not so desperate for Florida that they'll "punish" Cuba more. When we give people real choices on election day rather than the two who are corporate owned. It is the very reason that I refuse to again vote for the "lesser of two evils". I realized my mistake and will not repeat it. We just need more to realize the same.

The reality is that no matter who is elected next November, the "sanctions" will continue, the CIA will continue, and the same things will be happening. Even the candidates admit that they wouldn't be able to get the US forces out of Iraq by the end of their term as President. That is truly telling to me.

 

[blackascoal]

I agree. Sometimes those of us that are so political/current events interested can become very jaded, especially while on venues like messageboards. We tend to argue in 'absolutist terms' for agreeing with 'the enemy' is to give up a win.

On the other hand, in real life, I have many liberal friends, heck 2 of my kids are quite of that 'bent.' I do plenty of volunteer work, with both county and church sponsored food efforts. Guess what? There are both Democrats, Liberals, even a few atheists and considering I live in Wheaton, it just proves we can 'all get along,' or at least those of us that do try to utilize our better natures.

Once one recognizes that there are way more good people than bad, one can begin to visualize and work towards making things better. To begin with a 'tear down' mentality, is regressing in a Hobbesian scenario.

I agree with you, but I have never suggested that we should tear down anything, but we damn well pay attention to what ails us. We damn well better reject the notion of American imperialism and the ideologies that support it.

 

[Damocles]

When have you ever heard me suggest, state, imply, or even slightly intimate that we should start over?

Solutions are found in looking at PROBLEMS .. I'm confused as why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

Starting over? .. Not sure where that came from.

I'm "confused" on how you can't realize that when seeking a solution you have already found what you perceive to be a problem.

I prefer to focus on solutions, on fixing it rather than pat myself on the back for seeing what I need to fix. I get sick of both parties simply pointing out what they other party hasn't done and calling that campaigning.

 

[blackascoal]

You are repeating what I said. Just in different words. I don't think they'd be floating here because I don't think Castro would still be in power. The "sanctions" are not very successful, almost all other nations trade with them.

Castro is nowhere near the tyrant that Batista was, yet the cuban people got rid of Batista, just as they would get rid of Castro if they chose to do so.

Castro would still be in power presiding over a prosperous Cuba .. which is why the sanctions remain in place. This isn't about Castro, it's about capitalism.

Of course it is, it backfired hugely and created the "I smell brimstone" Chavez that we know and love today.

The quote is "I smell sulfur", but I agree with you.

Yeah, I read the Ugly American too. We will do that as soon as the politicians on both sides are not so desperate for Florida that they'll "punish" Cuba more. When we give people real choices on election day rather than the two who are corporate owned. It is the very reason that I refuse to again vote for the "lesser of two evils". I realized my mistake and will not repeat it. We just need more to realize the same.

The reality is that no matter who is elected next November, the "sanctions" will continue, the CIA will continue, and the same things will be happening. Even the candidates admit that they wouldn't be able to get the US forces out of Iraq by the end of their term as President. That is truly telling to me.

But my question was if what we've done to Latin America was relevant.

One of the main reasons why sanctions still remain and why American politicians don't have to deal with truth is because it's not spoken. When the truth of our failed and horrific foreign policy gets spoken, it's shot down by cheerleading "patriots" who don't want truth to be told .. thus Americans can't handle it.

 

[Annie]

I agree with you, but I have never suggested that we should tear down anything, but we damn well pay attention to what ails us. We damn well better reject the notion of American imperialism and the ideologies that support it.

I've always rejected imperialism, whether American or others. I don't think what we are doing in the ME is imperialistic. Why? We are not taking things from there, goods or people, to enrich ourselves. Quite the contrary as pointed out here everyday, it's costing us a fortune in money and our own best.

Will it be successful? Truly, I don't know, but I'm a heck of a lot more optimistic on that front than 5 or 6 months ago.

 

[Damocles]

I've always rejected imperialism, whether American or others. I don't think what we are doing in the ME is imperialistic. Why? We are not taking things from there, goods or people, to enrich ourselves. Quite the contrary as pointed out here everyday, it's costing us a fortune in money and our own best.

Will it be successful? Truly, I don't know, but I'm a heck of a lot more optimistic on that front than 5 or 6 months ago.

Yeah, I am hopeful that something good will be able to be pulled from the pile of dung.

 

[blackascoal]

I, personally, don't point fingers at other nations. I don't care about Venezuela or Cuba. I do love when people try to make Cuba look like a paradise when the actual fact is that people leave there in droves desperate to make it here. Sometimes floating on car doors they are so desperate to get out.

There is something very wrong there. But it isn't my place to fix it. I think that Castro would long have been gone if we hadn't started in on the "sanctions" which constantly backfire. I hate when the US uses sanctions, it simply cements the power of the people we are supposedly "punishing". It makes the populace even less able to fight against what they may think is tyranny (and by the amount that leave and the sentiment of those who get here clearly they often do in large enough numbers to have such desperate action be a regular occurrence).

I don't ignore issues with the US. It is preposterous to say that all of any group does. There are people on my side who see the same things I do. In fact, even among republicans (not all of the "leaning-right" by a long shot) Bush isn't very popular, it seems even they see some of the same problems we do.

Voters on the right voted for and supported the policies of George Bush.

How is that statement "preposterous" even with the knowledge that some voters on the right did not? Bush is not popular today because he and his policies are proven failures, but that doesn't the fact that he and his failures were not only supported by the right, not the left, but more importantly, they were supported by the republican candidates running for president, with the EXCEPTION of Paul, and who are still touting the very same policies of Bush even without mentioning his name.

Therein lies the crux of the argument my brother, now that we've gotten beyond the personal. It comes down to not the failures of Bush, but the failures of the ideology of the right.

You can talk about looking for good, problem-solving, and introspective all you want, but the insidious braindead mindless evil that is at the core of this chaos America finds itself in is on the right and ONLY people on the right support that bullshit. Bush is just the puppet of the moment, but republicans and the right still support the madness that pulled his strings.

And that truth does not change because some republicans and some on the right don't support him. What does "all" have to do with it.

It's no coincidence that those that think there is something, anything wrong with speaking the truth about our history or pointing out the evil that is us are on the right or "lean" to the right .. and "all" has nothing to do with that either.

 

[Damocles]

Voters on the right voted for and supported the policies of George Bush.

How is that statement "preposterous" even with the knowledge that some voters on the right did not? Bush is not popular today because he and his policies are proven failures, but that doesn't the fact that he and his failures were not only supported by the right, not the left, but more importantly, they were supported by the republican candidates running for president, with the EXCEPTION of Paul, and who are still touting the very same policies of Bush even without mentioning his name.

Therein lies the crux of the argument my brother, now that we've gotten beyond the personal. It comes down to not the failures of Bush, but the failures of the ideology of the right.

You can talk about looking for good, problem-solving, and introspective all you want, but the insidious braindead mindless evil that is at the core of this chaos America finds itself in is on the right and ONLY people on the right support that bullshit. Bush is just the puppet of the moment, but republicans and the right still support the madness that pulled his strings.

And that truth does not change because some republicans and some on the right don't support him. What does "all" have to do with it.

It's no coincidence that those that think there is something, anything wrong with speaking the truth about our history or pointing out the evil that is us are on the right or "lean" to the right .. and "all" has nothing to do with that either.

Previously, in this very thread mind you, I said that many on the right followed that policy and that I regretted that. I also pointed out how often his actions were not very "right" at all and how I wished they would have stuck to their principle rather than adhered to their "party".

Of course you simply ignored that I said it and attempted to repeat that I had not done any introspection...

When Bush first ran and was speaking of those things that actually did "lean right" in his policy he ran against nation building. Yet after 9/11 the first reaction was to begin exactly that type of action not in one place, but in two.

It is not my ideology that has failed, it is when they fail to adhere to that ideology that they become failures.

He ran against meddling in governments in South America and he certainly didn't support "xenophobic" policy. Yet his actions were different. Not because "leaning right" ideology fails, but because he knew that if he spoke with truth of what he would do then he would never have won. He had to win over those who "lean right".

The war gave nationalists a reason to continue voting for the man even though they knew that he was nobody who ever "leaned right". He is not an example of my ideology.

 

[blackascoal]

I've always rejected imperialism, whether American or others. I don't think what we are doing in the ME is imperialistic. Why? We are not taking things from there, goods or people, to enrich ourselves. Quite the contrary as pointed out here everyday, it's costing us a fortune in money and our own best.

Will it be successful? Truly, I don't know, but I'm a heck of a lot more optimistic on that front than 5 or 6 months ago.

What we do on the ME is nothing short of the very definition of imperialism and you can include Latin America in that conversation.

This is where the discussion of history is important in arriving at any just conclusion about our role in the ME. History does not support your comment. We invaded Iraq for oil and power and we mass-murdered countless numbers of people for profit. Western oil corporations have made more PROFIT during the Iraq war than any corporations in history.

WE overthrew the elected government in Iran and installed a brutal dictator for PROFIT.

Who PROFITS from the war in Afghanistan .. besides the opium dealers .. western oil corporations who now have the pipeline they demanded be built and the Afghan government changed .. which they also demanded.

Our policy with Israel is nothing short of imperialistic and there is a huge price to pay for that.

 

[blackascoal]

Previously, in this very thread mind you, I said that many on the right followed that policy and that I regretted that. I also pointed out how often his actions were not very "right" at all and how I wished they would have stuck to their principle rather than adhered to their "party".

Of course you simply ignored that I said it and attempted to repeat that I had not done any introspection...

When Bush first ran and was speaking of those things that actually did "lean right" in his policy he ran against nation building. Yet after 9/11 the first reaction was to begin exactly that type of action not in one place, but in two.

It is not my ideology that has failed, it is when they fail to adhere to that ideology that they become failures.

He ran against meddling in governments in South America and he certainly didn't support "xenophobic" policy. Yet his actions were different. Not because "leaning right" ideology fails, but because he knew that if he spoke with truth of what he would do then he would never have won. He had to win over those who "lean right".

The war gave nationalists a reason to continue voting for the man even though they knew that he was nobody who ever "leaned right". He is not an example of my ideology.

Dude .. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU .. and I did not use your name.

 

[Battleborne]

What we do on the ME is nothing short of the very definition of imperialism and you can include Latin America in that conversation.

This is where the discussion of history is important in arriving at any just conclusion about our role in the ME. History does not support your comment. We invaded Iraq for oil and power and we mass-murdered countless numbers of people for profit. Western oil corporations have made more PROFIT during the Iraq war than any corporations in history.

WE overthrew the elected government in Iran and installed a brutal dictator for PROFIT.

Who PROFITS from the war in Afghanistan .. besides the opium dealers .. western oil corporations who now have the pipeline they demanded be built and the Afghan government changed .. which they also demanded.

Our policy with Israel is nothing short of imperialistic and there is a huge price to pay for that.

this could get interesting...being that Kathianne is of Jewish decent...
or was that her kids... being that her ex-hubby was...it was one or the other or both ...I forget!

 

[Damocles]

Dude .. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU .. and I did not use your name.

And I didn't make it personal I spoke of ideology (well save for that one little statement about introspection). There is a reason that Bush ran on what is clearly not his policy, it is because he doesn't "lean right" in any matter close to those of us who do. I have posted how his policy is different than ours as a larger group and waxed rhapsodic about a wish that those who think as I do stuck to principle rather than following party, especially with this guy in power.

It isn't just the "Pill Bill" that people like me who "lean right" are upset at Bush over. The reasons are legion.

I even spoke to the reason some of them voted for Bush a second time even when they knew his policy stank and wasn't even close to theirs.