Civil War

Your comment reeks of the same tired anti-capitalist tropes that conspiracy theorists peddle ignoring the overwhelming evidence that free markets drive innovation efficiency and prosperity like no other system in history. Let’s break it down.

You claim execs are just stock-price manipulators who don’t care about long-term consequences. Sure some prioritize short-term gains human nature isn’t perfect. But the beauty of the free market is its self-correcting mechanism. Bad management gets punished by competition not coddled by government bailouts or union featherbedding. If a company’s leadership tanks the business chasing quarterly numbers they lose market share stock value plummets and they’re out of a job. Look at Sears or Blockbuster free markets don’t reward incompetence for long.

You sneer at “sniveling about unions and da government” but let’s be real overreaching unions and bloated regulations often choke businesses. The U.S. manufacturing sector has been hammered by labor costs inflated by union demands and government red tape that makes it cheaper to produce overseas. Data backs this up U.S. manufacturing jobs dropped from 19.5 million in 1979 to 12.9 million in 2023 largely because of global competition and regulatory burdens. Free markets incentivize efficiency unions and government often protect inefficiency.

Your distinction between “parasitical” financial capital and “productive” industrial capital is a false dichotomy. Both are essential. Financial markets allocate resources efficiently funding innovation and growth. Industrial capital doesn’t exist in a vacuum it needs investment which comes from those “parasitical” markets you decry. Apple Tesla and countless others wouldn’t exist without the free flow of capital. You think manufacturing thrives under central planning? Look at the Soviet Union’s collapse or Venezuela’s economic implosion state-controlled systems fail every time.

As for monopolies and corporate greed controlling governments the free market isn’t the culprit cronyism is. When government picks winners and losers through subsidies or regulations it distorts the market. The solution isn’t less freedom it’s more. Break up monopolies through competition not heavy-handed state intervention. Big Tech’s dominance for example is already being challenged by nimble startups and consumer choice not government edicts.

You call it “spin and anecdotal rubbish” but the data speaks for itself free market economies like the U.S. have consistently higher GDP per capita innovation rates and living standards than any socialist or heavily regulated system. The World Bank shows market-driven nations like Singapore and Switzerland far outpace others in economic freedom and prosperity. The free market isn’t perfect nothing is but it’s the only system that consistently rewards productivity punishes failure and lifts billions out of poverty. Your conspiracy-laced rant ignores that reality.

Another fantasist completely oblivious to reality and just parroting fake tales. There are no free markets', and most regulations evolved from merchants and businessmen themselves, seeking legal protections from each other's predatory amorality. Jefferson wanted the nation's capital out of New York City for the every good reason that the merchants were corrupt and would soon dominate the govt., which they eventually did.

Singapore does well precisely because it avoids libertarian bullshit and corruption; it is dominated by a few families who have a very low tolerance for corrupt business practices..


Very un -American ...

SWitzerland was always a haven for stashing stolen money and fencing stolen goods. It's 'economy' is built on that; it is able to survive because it is easily defended from invasion, not because it's such a bastion of 'free markets'.

'False dichotomy' my ass .. all banks and Wall Street sells is debt; it produces nothing else. They eventually strangle everything they touch to death. The history is there for anybody to study.

Yes, the data does indeed speak for itself. Financial sectors do not reward meritocracy and hard work, they just bleed it dry. Your claim they don't get bailed out and rescued is some hilarious cartoon stuff. 'Too Big To Fail' is a real thing with your big financial behemoths.
 
Apple Tesla and countless others wouldn’t exist without the free flow of capital. Y

Those companies exist because of big govt. research projects and govt. patent laws that protect them from competition for many years, just the opposite of what you claim. In the meantime, they use lawfare to harass and shut down any small startups that threaten their profits and build giant patent pools to stay on top of the markets. They get subsidized by govt. all the time. Tesla got Fed and state welfare and tax subsidies. Apple is merely a spin off of govt. computer and electronics research, same as all the other Silly Con Valley spin offs.
 
No, they don't. Most larger companies have apprenticeship programs for the trades. For example,



Then why are you whining about how the govt. doesn't train anybody? You're contradicting your own claims.

Companies are desperate for skilled trade workers and pay well to get them.

No, they rig wages via collusion, which is why they all pay pretty much the same, and they make illegal agreements not to poach each other's employees and engage in wage wars.

You are thinking in terms of the Industrial Age. It's the Electronics Age now and things are vastly different.

That's so Industrial Age. Things have changed with the end of that and the emergence of the Electronics Age.

More rubbish. Whether it's shovels or lcd TV's, it all works the same. Automation takes the skills out of more jobs than it creates, and lowers wages. Eventually a handful of people make a living, the rest starve and create political instability.
 
Another fantasist completely oblivious to reality and just parroting fake tales. There are no free markets', and most regulations evolved from merchants and businessmen themselves, seeking legal protections from each other's predatory amorality. Jefferson wanted the nation's capital out of New York City for the every good reason that the merchants were corrupt and would soon dominate the govt., which they eventually did.

Singapore does well precisely because it avoids libertarian bullshit and corruption; it is dominated by a few families who have a very low tolerance for corrupt business practices..


Very un -American ...

SWitzerland was always a haven for stashing stolen money and fencing stolen goods. It's 'economy' is built on that; it is able to survive because it is easily defended from invasion, not because it's such a bastion of 'free markets'.

'False dichotomy' my ass .. all banks and Wall Street sells is debt; it produces nothing else. They eventually strangle everything they touch to death. The history is there for anybody to study.

Yes, the data does indeed speak for itself. Financial sectors do not reward meritocracy and hard work, they just bleed it dry. Your claim they don't get bailed out and rescued is some hilarious cartoon stuff. 'Too Big To Fail' is a real thing with your big financial behemoths.
Tinfoil hats are all the rage these days, have you picked yours out yet?
 
Those companies exist because of big govt. research projects and govt. patent laws that protect them from competition for many years, just the opposite of what you claim. In the meantime, they use lawfare to harass and shut down any small startups that threaten their profits and build giant patent pools to stay on top of the markets. They get subsidized by govt. all the time. Tesla got Fed and state welfare and tax subsidies. Apple is merely a spin off of govt. computer and electronics research, same as all the other Silly Con Valley spin offs.
I know that this will seem like a very strange question, but what the hell. Did you watch Grizzly Adams as a child?
 
I know that this will seem like a very strange question, but what the hell. Did you watch Grizzly Adams as a child?

Well, you do seem strange, but studying history might cure that. Thomas Jefferson wanted the national capital far away from NYC and Hamilton for a very good reason. the real libertarians were just as leery of financial capitalism as they were King George and his cronies.

As for technology advancing, it had a lot more to do with govt. spending than 'capitalist bankers n stuff'. Most of the technology was invented in Europe, and most of the machinery inventions were done at the Federal armories at Springfield. West Point produced most of the American engineers for decades. The drive toward standardization was paid for by govt. Samuel Colt got his ideas there.

Carnegie for instance made many trips to England in order to steal British steel making innovations, same as the Red Chinese now do to us. He was no inventor, just a lucky guy who benefited from insider trading by way of being Tom Scott's secretary and cashing in on the various scams Scott ran that looted his own railroad. For instance, they formed car making companies to sell rolling stock to the Pennsylvania at inflated prices; same with other supplies.

They also extorted businesses that relied on rail transportation mercilessly, driving the most profitable out of business or forcing them to sell a big chunk of their stock to Scott and his cronies.

They tried that on John D. Rockefeller; their problem was Vanderbilt also wanted a big piece of the new oil industry for his railroad, and so did Gould's Erie, so he had his accountant set up those transportation price rigging schemes most falsely claim Rockefeller organized. Rockefeller was able to play off Scott, Gould, and Vanderbilt off against each other. And, like all the other capitalists to this day, he abhored competition and squashed it to nothing over the years. Morgan did it with several industries: railroads, steel, coal, shipping, tobacco, etc.
 
All the above failures of financial scams is where anti-trust laws and labor laws and unions come from. It's self-inflicted, due to the complete lack of honesty and amorality rampant in corporate cultures. Get over it, there have never been 'free markets', and never will be. They are always dominated by a few. The real issue is whether they are dominated by criminal syndicates or people genuinely supportive of meritocracies and rewarding hard work like the oligarchs of Singapore. The latter types are a very small minority.
 
Well, you do seem strange, but studying history might cure that. Thomas Jefferson wanted the national capital far away from NYC and Hamilton for a very good reason. the real libertarians were just as leery of financial capitalism as they were King George and his cronies.

As for technology advancing, it had a lot more to do with govt. spending than 'capitalist bankers n stuff'. Most of the technology was invented in Europe, and most of the machinery inventions were done at the Federal armories at Springfield. West Point produced most of the American engineers for decades. The drive toward standardization was paid for by govt. Samuel Colt got his ideas there.

Carnegie for instance made many trips to England in order to steal British steel making innovations, same as the Red Chinese now do to us. He was no inventor, just a lucky guy who benefited from insider trading by way of being Tom Scott's secretary and cashing in on the various scams Scott ran that looted his own railroad. For instance, they formed car making companies to sell rolling stock to the Pennsylvania at inflated prices; same with other supplies.

They also extorted businesses that relied on rail transportation mercilessly, driving the most profitable out of business or forcing them to sell a big chunk of their stock to Scott and his cronies.

They tried that on John D. Rockefeller; their problem was Vanderbilt also wanted a big piece of the new oil industry for his railroad, and so did Gould's Erie, so he had his accountant set up those transportation price rigging schemes most falsely claim Rockefeller organized. Rockefeller was able to play off Scott, Gould, and Vanderbilt off against each other. And, like all the other capitalists to this day, he abhored competition and squashed it to nothing over the years. Morgan did it with several industries: railroads, steel, coal, shipping, tobacco, etc.
You didn't answer the question, it's a simple yes or no. I'm familiar with history by nutjobs, I just wanted to know if you watched Grizzly Adams as a child.
 
You didn't answer the question, it's a simple yes or no. I'm familiar with history by nutjobs, I just wanted to know if you watched Grizzly Adams as a child.

I've answered it several times; you just don't have a clue about real life business, is all, and wouldn't understand the answer when you see it. Typical for a generation that has the Feds bailing out their 401K's and Wall Street gambling for decades now.

More on real economic history:

The Great Merger Movement

The 'Great Merger Movement” was mostly about reining in price competition. The Morgan gospel of replacing “ruinous competition”with “cooperation” had clearly found a wide and receptive audience. In Lincoln's day, when business was mostly a local affair,many companies enjoyed modest mini-monopolies. But when the railroads, telegraphs, and mail-order houses nationalized markets, competition grew long claws, and the competitive wars of the 1880's and 1890'swere unusually fierce.

The typical company swept up in the merger mania, according to a profile developed by the historian Naomi Lamoreaux, was a medium-sized business, in an industry with modestly high fixed costs and rapid growth. Papermaking is a good example. The explosion of print media in the 1880's and 1890's, and modern Fourdrinier papermaking machines, created mouth-watering opportunities for ambitious entrepreneurs. But the machines were almost too affordable - right in the gray area where a mid-sized business could buy one,but then couldn't afford to let it sit idle. The result was a deadly cycle of temporary scarcities, waves of of new competitors, price wars and competitive shakeouts, followed by another round of scarcity, and another wave of entrants.* Wire and nail makers and makers of tin plate (coated sheet steel for tin cans and roofing material) showed an almost identical pattern. In the case of tinplate, the market was driven both by boom in canned goods and by a stiff tariff against British tin plate in 1890.

...from The Tycoons, by Charles R. Morris.

*Not unlike the modern software industry (although software cycles turn on obsolescence, not scarcity). Although Microsoft has manged to achieve “discipline”, in Morgan's sense, in personal computer software, there is no clear leader in business software. Software is deceptively easy to enter, but fixed costs can be quite high (for testing, documentation, maintaining cross-platform compatability, the required stream of new features, etc.), so each stage of product innovation is usually marked by a cycle of cutthroat competition and a nasty shakeout. Computer hardware is already approaching a state of nearly frictionless economic pricing. Even the biggest and most successful companies have no margin for stumbling --- vide the swift demise of Compaq.

Like this little footnote; it shows that there is nothing new under the sun, and certainly idiotic memes like 'Da Global Economy' being spouted as if it were some new thing by ignorant ass Bush Moonies and Welfare Street Journal tout sheet subscribers.

The bolded part was bolded by me; one of the main reasons for this boom in print media was due directly to the Rockefeller monopoly. Unlike other monopolies, John D. drastically reduced lamp oil prices,and kept them low, rather than gouge the public, and with oil lamps selling for as little as 25 cents, this caused a great boom in education and literacy, since people of modest means suddenly had some kind of life after sundown, especially rural and small townfolks. The effects of this is one of the great overlooked influences on America, and it is one of the reasons, incidentally, that I actually respect old John D. and Standard Oil, as opposed to feckless thieves like Andrew Carnegie and J.P. Morgan and their ilk. Can't say much for his brother William or his other partners.. He wasn't thrilled with their extra-curicular financial piracy, either.

John D. also said: " Competition is a sin."

So, anyway, it was in this era that the idea of 'competition' was laid to rest as the stupidity it is when fixed costs are high, and it had to be removed so large companies and economies of scale could be financially viable as long term operations, and this is just as true today. Competition is for the little people, like 'O/O's' and 'Independents'. It died over a hundred years ago for the upper classes. Obviously they decided a long time ago that competition doesn't work, while spouting 'Capitalism Is Grand' to the gullible public.

And, in the end, these mergers were not fine examples of 'Capitalism at Work ' either; they were merely scams.:

Executing a merger was primarily a paper-shuffling transaction; few of them required large amounts of outside financing. (The $1.4 billion U.S.Steel deal involved only $25 million in new cash; the rest was just the nominal value of the paper issued in exchange for the securities of the merger participants).

Same source as above.

Fredrick Allen laid out this paper-shuffling and how the stock-watering:played out, the lottery tickets that get peddled to the littlepeople, to let them pretend they're 'capitalists', too.

All the companies combined were worth $682 million, at a highly inflated estimate at that, and owed about $81 million in miscellaneous obligations, debts, payroll, etc. They gave Carnegie $303 million in bonds for his company, about 6 times what it was worth, of which he got two thirds. They then issued $510 million in preferred stock, and another $508 million in common stock, with Morgan taking $130 million or so of that for himself. Not a bad deal for only $25 million in new cash, eh? $1.4 billion for a company actually worth half that, and an out of pocket expense of $25 million, or about a 3.6% outlay. No risk at all here if it folded the next day. Only $303 million is secured by bonds, and those went to Carnegie, who would only be faced with getting his own company back, and since his company was grossly overvalued to begin with, a lot of other companies to boot. The only risk involved is on the part of the people who bought the heavily watered stock put on the exchange, i.e. The little guy who bought the lottery tickets would get soaked for his cash if the deal fell through and absorb the entire risk, a few of the business owners would lose a little profit while their companies were part of the combination, and the 'Capitalists' weren't risking so much as a dime of their own.
 
I forgot to add in post 233 that Carnegie insisted on being paid on his bonds in gold, not the waste paper he paid his own employees.
 
I've answered it several times; you just don't have a clue about real life business, is all. Typical for a generation that has the FEds bailing out thier 401K's and Wall Street gambling for decades now.

More on real economic history:

The Great Merger Movement



...from The Tycoons, by Charles R. Morris.



Like this little footnote; it shows that there is nothing new under the sun, and certainly idiotic memes like 'Da Global Economy' being spouted as if it were some new thing by ignorant ass Bush Moonies and Welfare Street Journal tout sheet subscribers.

The bolded part was bolded by me; one of the main reasons for this boom in print media was due directly to the Rockefeller monopoly. Unlike other monopolies, John D. drastically reduced lamp oil prices,and kept them low, rather than gouge the public, and with oil lamps selling for as little as 25 cents, this caused a great boom in education and literacy, since people of modest means suddenly had some kind of life after sundown, especially rural and small townfolks. The effects of this is one of the great overlooked influences on America, and it is one of the reasons, incidentally, that I actually respect old John D. and Standard Oil, as opposed to feckless thieves like Andrew Carnegie and J.P. Morgan and their ilk. Can't say much for his brother William or his other partners.. He wasn't thrilled with their extra-curicular financial piracy, either.

John D. also said: " Competition is a sin."

So, anyway, it was in this era that the idea of 'competition' was laid to rest as the stupidity it is when fixed costs are high, and it had to be removed so large companies and economies of scale could be financially viable as long term operations, and this is just as true today. Competition is for the little people, like 'O/O's' and 'Independents'. It died over a hundred years ago for the upper classes. Obviously they decided a long time ago that competition doesn't work, while spouting 'Capitalism Is Grand' to the gullible public.

And, in the end, these mergers were not fine examples of 'Capitalism at Work ' either; they were merely scams.:



Same source as above.

Fredrick Allen laid out this paper-shuffling and how the stock-watering:played out, the lottery tickets that get peddled to the littlepeople, to let them pretend they're 'capitalists', too.

All the companies combined were worth $682 million, at a highly inflated estimate at that, and owed about $81 million in miscellaneous obligations, debts, payroll, etc. They gave Carnegie $303 million in bonds for his company, about 6 times what it was worth, of which he got two thirds. They then issued $510 million in preferred stock, and another $508 million in common stock, with Morgan taking $130 million or so of that for himself. Not a bad deal for only $25 million in new cash, eh? $1.4 billion for a company actually worth half that, and an out of pocket expense of $25 million, or about a 3.6% outlay. No risk at all here if it folded the next day. Only $303 million is secured by bonds, and those went to Carnegie, who would only be faced with getting his own company back, and since his company was grossly overvalued to begin with, a lot of other companies to boot. The only risk involved is on the part of the people who bought the heavily watered stock put on the exchange, i.e. The little guy who bought the lottery tickets would get soaked for his cash if the deal fell through and absorb the entire risk, a few of the business owners would lose a little profit while their companies were part of the combination, and the 'Capitalists' weren't risking so much as a dime of their own.
It's a simple question. I don't need anymore 'History by jealous losers.' I only asked if you watched Grizzly Adams as a child. How hard is that? You don't want to answer, that's fine, but spare me the drivel, I gave that shit up when I was 16. Some people can't get past the 'thou shall not covet' thing so naturally they (you) gravitate toward alternative history written by and for people with an axe to grind. Who knows maybe someone will read your bullshit and give you a high five, I know a couple others like you that will eat that shit up.
 
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