Complete Transformation’: New Biden Rule Would Force Automakers to Ditch Gas, Sell El

[Walt]

So they sell no cars in this country?

America made gas guzzlers that sold well in the USA, and less well, but OK, in other countries. Then the gas crisis happened, and suddenly people started to realize that gas guzzlers were not that great. That is why Toyota and other East Asian car companies started taking off. The lower sales abroad were a warning that we were going to lose sales here. We spent much of the 70's and 80's having to bail out the failing American car makers.

You want us to bet our car companies on the gas guzzler again. Even though we will not be able to export them, you say that we could just consume them all in the USA. But what happens when consumers in the USA stop buying them. We could create import barriers, and slowly become Brazil, or worse yet North Korea.

Or we can evolve, and make better cars.

 

[ptif219]

America made gas guzzlers that sold well in the USA, and less well, but OK, in other countries. Then the gas crisis happened, and suddenly people started to realize that gas guzzlers were not that great. That is why Toyota and other East Asian car companies started taking off. The lower sales abroad were a warning that we were going to lose sales here. We spent much of the 70's and 80's having to bail out the failing American car makers.

You want us to bet our car companies on the gas guzzler again. Even though we will not be able to export them, you say that we could just consume them all in the USA. But what happens when consumers in the USA stop buying them. We could create import barriers, and slowly become Brazil, or worse yet North Korea.

Or we can evolve, and make better cars.

Good luck with EV because most people don't want them. Next EV will pay a mileage tax to replace the gas tax so get ready

 

[Walt]

Good luck with EV because most people don't want them.

They made the same arguments about ICE's when they were replacing the horse. They made the same arguments about the more efficient cars in the 1970's.

We keep coming back to the point that people just want something that will get them from point A to point B while not costing them an arm and a leg. There are a few people who want to burn gasoline to impress other people, but they are so few, it is hard to support an industry on them.

Next EV will pay a mileage tax to replace the gas tax so get ready

The idea would be to make all cars pay a mileage tax, so ICE's will have to pay both taxes.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They made the same arguments about ICE's when they were replacing the horse. They made the same arguments about the more efficient cars in the 1970's.

We keep coming back to the point that people just want something that will get them from point A to point B while not costing them an arm and a leg. There are a few people who want to burn gasoline to impress other people, but they are so few, it is hard to support an industry on them.

This is completely untrue. People immediately saw the advantages of ICE vehicles over horses. Good thing for horses too. They went from being worked to death by the millions to being a luxury item that was pampered.

The idea would be to make all cars pay a mileage tax, so ICE's will have to pay both taxes.

So long as they get rid of the gas tax that is currently used to pay for the things the milage tax covers. Of course, for older ICE cars this would be great as they wouldn't have to pay the tax much at all. There'd be no real means to know what kind of mileage was driven per year on one.

 

[Nordberg]

All the car companies except one are making EVs. There are new EV companies and start-ups in the early build stages. There will be no job losses. thee will be a huge amount of new jobs coming and many new ones are already here. There is a lot of research directed at EVs and charging. There will have to be a lot of mechanics and technologies requiring educated workforces for EVs. The future looks bright and clean.

 

[Walt]

This is completely untrue. People immediately saw the advantages of ICE vehicles over horses.

Gasoline was hard to come by. There was no distribution network. The cars broke down easily. It would take a couple of days to repair a tire (before modern roads, there were a lot of flats). And they were dangerous, which made people hate them. They were hard to start, you had to be a strong man to turn the crank.

Unusable, dangerous, hard to use, breaking down easily... And very expensive. Yes, they cost several years income for the average person, so that was another reason to hate them.

So long as they get rid of the gas tax that is currently used to pay for the things the milage tax covers.

No, no, no... That is not the way government works. There will be a tax on miles, AND a tax on gasoline, that will go up a lot. As fewer people own gasoline powered cars, fewer people will care about your complaints.

Of course, for older ICE cars this would be great as they wouldn't have to pay the tax much at all.

Again, not how government works. No one is going to give you a tax break for being stupid.

There'd be no real means to know what kind of mileage was driven per year on one.

The odometers come to mind. If people start messing with that, there are ways to make better odometers.

If you have a pre-odometer car, they can just charge you an even $100k a year to drive on the roads. Who is going to complain? A few really old car owners?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Gasoline was hard to come by. There was no distribution network. The cars broke down easily. It would take a couple of days to repair a tire (before modern roads, there were a lot of flats). And they were dangerous, which made people hate them. They were hard to start, you had to be a strong man to turn the crank.

Unusable, dangerous, hard to use, breaking down easily... And very expensive. Yes, they cost several years income for the average person, so that was another reason to hate them.

They beat battery cars that were available because there was barely anywhere to charge one and it took forever. They beat horses because they could drive further, were repairable, and didn't need a tenth of the attention and feed a horse did. They could also carry loads far in excess of what a team of horses could at speeds that were greater. People of that period found them a far better choice to horses and batteries.

No, no, no... That is not the way government works. There will be a tax on miles, AND a tax on gasoline, that will go up a lot. As fewer people own gasoline powered cars, fewer people will care about your complaints.

I'd expect the taxes on EV's to just go higher because government can tax them. Then they can put taxes on charging stations--including the one in your home... Don't underestimate the duplicity of government to fuck you over.

Again, not how government works. No one is going to give you a tax break for being stupid.

Government would have no way to know what your actual mileage was in a pre-massive electronics vehicle. Without a data link, they couldn't track your mileage, and they'd have a hard time justifying a retrofit because of the no ex post facto laws.

The odometers come to mind. If people start messing with that, there are ways to make better odometers.

It's easier than that in an old car. Just disconnect it. They're mechanically driven and it takes all of a couple of minutes to do.

If you have a pre-odometer car, they can just charge you an even $100k a year to drive on the roads. Who is going to complain? A few really old car owners?

Any car with an old mechanical odometer can be disconnected. They would have a hard time justifying that. There would be lots and lots of very rich antique car owners who would object, and they have the money and political clout to take on government.

 

[Walt]

I am beginning to wonder if Gardner has ever owned a car.

Without a data link, they couldn't track your mileage, and they'd have a hard time justifying a retrofit because of the no ex post facto laws.

Currently, every year you are required to report the odometer reading to the government, so they do not need a data link. It is not a ex post facto law to require cars to add something to be legal to drive on the road. They usually grandfather clause in cars, but there is no constitutional requirement they do.

It's easier than that in an old car. Just disconnect it. They're mechanically driven and it takes all of a couple of minutes to do.

First, there is tamperproof containers. Messing with that, and leaving no evidence, is not easy. Certainly not a few minutes.

More importantly, if you get caught driving a car with the odometer disconnected, that is a FELONY. You are looking at one to three years in prison. And because it is a federal felony, you will not be getting out early.

Any car with an old mechanical odometer can be disconnected. They would have a hard time justifying that. There would be lots and lots of very rich antique car owners who would object, and they have the money and political clout to take on government.

The wealthy just pay these fees, and move on. They do not risk felony time for such stupid little things.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I am beginning to wonder if Gardner has ever owned a car.

Currently, every year you are required to report the odometer reading to the government, so they do not need a data link. It is not a ex post facto law to require cars to add something to be legal to drive on the road. They usually grandfather clause in cars, but there is no constitutional requirement they do.

No, I'm not. If you itemize your taxes, and most Americans don't, you can deduct for mileage for certain things like business use and travel, etc. But you have to meet the threshold for itemizing. And on that note, you can give a guess on it as easily as anything. There is NO requirement I report my total mileage for the year to the government.

Yes, there is a constitutional requirement. Article 1 section 9 specifically prohibits all ex post facto laws. You can't pass a law that is retroactive.

First, there is tamperproof containers. Messing with that, and leaving no evidence, is not easy. Certainly not a few minutes.

On old cars that are pre-electronic, the odometer is mechanical and driven by a gear and flexible rod assembly. Disconnect it, and the odometer stops working, usually along with the speedometer.

More importantly, if you get caught driving a car with the odometer disconnected, that is a FELONY. You are looking at one to three years in prison. And because it is a federal felony, you will not be getting out early.

Odometer fraud only applies to sales of the vehicle. In Arizona for example, there is a block on the title for the vehicle. If you check the box "Mileage in excess of odometer mechanical limits" then that's that. You can check the box "NOT Actual Mileage. WARNING ODOMETER DISCREPANCY" This too absolves you of any criminal charge.

So, disconnection isn't a crime unless you intend to defraud a buyer when selling the vehicle.

 

[Walt]

There is NO requirement I report my total mileage for the year to the government.

For both the registration, and the inspection, the mileage is reported to the government. The states are required by the federal government to get a report.

Yes, there is a constitutional requirement. Article 1 section 9 specifically prohibits all ex post facto laws. You can't pass a law that is retroactive.

Making a requirement to drive a car on future roads is not "ex post facto", even if the car is from the past. It would be like claiming that you can use a gun made before a murder law was put into place to murder people. Heck, pretty much all rocks predate murder laws... Does that mean rocks are legal to murder with?

On old cars that are pre-electronic, the odometer is mechanical and driven by a gear and flexible rod assembly. Disconnect it, and the odometer stops working, usually along with the speedometer.

It was usually made tamper resistant... But even if you could get away with it, you would be driving a car that is a federal felony. Worse yet, you would not know how fast you were going, and probably get pulled over for speeding.

One of the Big Three car companies used to drive new cars for a few months with the odometer/speedometer disconnected. People served felony time over that.

Odometer fraud only applies to sales of the vehicle.

It is currently assumed that all vehicles will one day be sold, and the reason for the odometer fraud is for a future sale. If there is state and federal taxes on the odometer reading, then it will be assumed that it is tax fraud.

So you have federal odometer fraud, federal tax fraud, and state tax fraud. Because they are in three different areas, they will not be served concurrently. That means you are going to serve at least 3 years in prison.

Is it really worth it?

In Arizona for example

Federal laws still apply in Arizona.

If you check the box "Mileage in excess of odometer mechanical limits" then that's that.

So all you have to do is drive a million miles a year, and it will register as zero miles? That would require you to drive 115 mph, every hour of the year. It is physically impossible. So if one year, you have 990,000.0, and the next year you have 010,000.0, then everyone knows you drove 20,000.0 miles that year. See how it works?

This too absolves you of any criminal charge.

No, it says that something happened. The only way to "absolve" you of criminal charges is to either explain what happened was no one's fault, or that it was someone else's fault.

So, disconnection isn't a crime unless you intend to defraud a buyer when selling the vehicle.

Or commit tax fraud? Remember, you want to commit felony tax fraud.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

I don't know what state you live in Walt, but the above is all pretty much wrong and bullshit in Arizona. There is no annual vehicle inspection here. You get a biannual emissions inspection and that's all. If you know the mileage is either in excess of the limits of the odometer, or is wrong you state so. That's that. It's right on the back of the title. If you checked the box that the mileage is in excess of the odometer limit or the one that says it is wrong, you have been honest with the buyer if those are the conditions in the eyes of the state. The feds have ZERO to do with that.

In all these cases, it isn't "tax fraud" either. You pay taxes on the profit you made selling the vehicle, like any other transaction. The odometer reading has nothing to do with that.

 

[Walt]

I don't know what state you live in Walt, but the above is all pretty much wrong and bullshit in Arizona.

One more time, federal law applies to all states.

In all these cases, it isn't "tax fraud" either.

If you disconnect the odometer to avoid paying a mileage tax, that is plain and simple tax fraud. You will go to prison for the odometer tampering... AND... For the tax fraud.

 

[ptif219]

They made the same arguments about ICE's when they were replacing the horse. They made the same arguments about the more efficient cars in the 1970's.

We keep coming back to the point that people just want something that will get them from point A to point B while not costing them an arm and a leg. There are a few people who want to burn gasoline to impress other people, but they are so few, it is hard to support an industry on them.



The idea would be to make all cars pay a mileage tax, so ICE's will have to pay both taxes.

Nice spin when you have nothing. Did they have a choice or were they forced to change. Biden is making regulations to force you to get an EV


https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/bi...s-strongest-ever-pollution-standards-cars-and

 

[Into the Night]

This will do great damage to the country. The grid is not ready and people will lose jobs. The poor and middle class will struggle because they can't afford electric cars and gas will be more expensive.Biden and his socialist agenda ttakes away freedom of choice. Biden and democrats want to control you. the only choice they believe in is the choice to kill babies


Complete Transformation’: New Biden Rule Would Force Automakers to Ditch Gas, Sell Electric Vehicles

Since this is unconstitutional, it remains to be seen how far this goes.

 

[Into the Night]

don't worry, the executive order can be tossed after the 24 election......it will never go into effect......

That is, of course, assuming there is an election in 2024 and that is doesn't fault again.

Election fraud by Democrats caused the 2020 election to fault.
Election fraud by Democrats caused several 2022 elections to fault.
Faulting is occurring due to election fraud even in primary and spring elections now.

 

[Into the Night]

We agree the grid is not ready, but disagree that getting the grid ready will lose jobs. Think about it, modernizing the grid will gain jobs, strengthen America, and make exports. The whole world will have to modernize their grid, and if we do it first, we can export our equipment to the rest of the world.

Paradox. You don't want to build power plants.

 

[Into the Night]

That supposed senile moron keeps outsmarting Republicans and everyone else.

No. Republicans and especially conservatives are exceedingly angry.

You have no idea what's coming. You cannot escape your fate.

 

[Into the Night]

The UAW will fight this because of jobs lost by car manufactureers layoffs. The jobs for taking away farmland for solar panels will be temporary

Solar panels are the most expensive method of producing power, watt for watt.

 

[Into the Night]

One thing about solar panels is they have to be maintained, which means solar panel jobs go on forever.

Not enough. Solar panels are piddle power.

As for jobs manufacturing cars for export, those might be automated, but you know what jobs will definitely go away, cars that cannot be exported.

Anything can be exported.

 

[Into the Night]

Those that make gas powered cars will be laid off

No. Biden cannot just destroy the oil products industry and the automotive industry with a single stroke of the pen.

Look for this one to get tossed out by courts.