Democrats failing to pass anti-war bill

[DigitalDave]

No matter how you spin it the Webb Amendment would have done a whole hell of a lot more than ended the surge. Just deal with that fact hotshot and learn that in life and politics getting to step one towards your eventual goal is better than getting to step zero. Webb's Amendment was step one towards ending the war and it was the only step that was achievable at this stage.

Your naivety is cute but it's wearing thin.

I don't see how drawing troops back to pre-surge levels would have helped in the goal of ending it completely. If anything, that would give cons more ammunition to continue this damn thing by saying 'Well since Democrats didn't let us complete 'The Surge', we have to draw this thing out longer to finish the job'. You can't do shit in Steps with politicians because they'll completely take you off track.

 

[Cancel7]

Well, I do know what the generals said, and I'll trust their assessment. It would have forced a return to pre-surge levels sooner.

Saying that I don't know but then reassuring me it was a vote against the war is pretty much even more spin.

As I said, whatever you need to do to convince yourself that it is okay to vote for the people who voted 70 to 28 to continue the war at the current level of funding and pretend it is still an "anti-war" vote. Keep squinting, at some point it might look like it really is more than a cosmetic pre-vote before the got serious and funded the war up nicely.

Well, I'll refer you to my post right above this.

But I can smell that desperation.

You ain't hanging this on the dems. Sorry, but your party is dead in the water.]

Again, thank bush and thank yourself for voting for him in 2008.

 

[Cancel7]

When did I say I support Bush? Man, you are getting desperate again.

"Well, they voted to fully fund it, but that isn't to extend it!" But, but, but... Rubbish. If they believe that it should be ended they can do it. That they haven't is extending this. Either they do it because they think it is right, or they do it for political expediency but fully funding the war is what they most certainly voted FOR.

It isn't me you are trying to convince.

I'm not trying to convince anybody.

I'm looking forward to one party rule for the next 20 years. I figure we'll need at least that long to turn around this disaster.

 

[Damocles]

I don't see how drawing troops back to pre-surge levels would have helped in the goal of ending it completely. If anything, that would give cons more ammunition to continue this damn thing by saying 'Well since Democrats didn't let us complete 'The Surge', we have to draw this thing out longer to finish the job'. You can't do shit in Steps with politicians because they'll completely take you off track.

They most certainly would have. However they knew that they didn't have cloture votes but voted on the measure anyway. This gives the appearance, which they used to cover a 70 to 28 vote to continue funding it at exactly the same levels...

 

[Cancel7]

I don't see how drawing troops back to pre-surge levels would have helped in the goal of ending it completely. If anything, that would give cons more ammunition to continue this damn thing by saying 'Well since Democrats didn't let us complete 'The Surge', we have to draw this thing out longer to finish the job'. You can't do shit in Steps with politicians because they'll completely take you off track.

You're accepting Damo's premise that this is all the Webb amendment would have accomplished.

I don't accept that. Our military is in serious trouble, and the military itself has said if we don't draw down by this spring we are broken.

So allowing our troops, some of whom are having mental breakdowns, an actual well deserved rest, would have affected those projections, it's idiocy to claim it wouldn't. And we don't know what the exact effects would have been.

And damo doesn't know either. He's just desperate to spread some of the Iraqi shit around. But if the war had gone well you wouldn't have seen Damo claiming, hey, the dems deserve some credit.

 

[Damocles]

Well, I'll refer you to my post right above this.

But I can smell that desperation.

You ain't hanging this on the dems. Sorry, but your party is dead in the water.]

Again, thank bush and thank yourself for voting for him in 2008.

*sigh*

"My party" long ago had my disgust for allowing the RR to take control. As you have known me for years you will know I have stated that for a looong, long time indeed.

However, I am not about to say that Bush didn't promote an undeclared debacle because I like to pretend it was the Ds fault. I certainly wouldn't be pretending that a 70 to 28 vote to continue funding the war was an "anti-war" vote.

 

[Cypress]

Well, I do know what the generals said, and I'll trust their assessment. It would have forced a return to pre-surge levels sooner.

Saying that I don't know but then reassuring me it was a vote against the war is pretty much even more spin.

As I said, whatever you need to do to convince yourself that it is okay to vote for the people who voted 70 to 28 to continue the war at the current level of funding and pretend it is still an "anti-war" vote. Keep squinting, at some point it might look like it really is more than a cosmetic pre-vote before they got serious and funded the war up nicely.

I'm in favor of using every legislative trick in the book to end Bush's war. The Webb amendment was just one tool. A vote to defund the war was taken yesterday, and failed. The Webb amendment got 57 votes, but was killed. Timelines for withdrawl are getting majority votes but are getting killed. Some people are doing everything they can do End Bush's war. As Darla say, Democrats as lame as they are, are at least trying to do something. Its sad that they can only get 29 votes to defund the war, but every other option is being explored and tried, but keeps getting shot down by the GOP. Dems have been pretty lame, but its your party that is keeping this war going.

 

[Damocles]

And damo doesn't know either. He's just desperate to spread some of the Iraqi shit around. But if the war had gone well you wouldn't have seen Damo claiming, hey, the dems deserve some credit.

I know it wouldn't end the war. That much I know. Ending the war was what they voted against.

They knew the cloture count before taking the vote, that is political pandering.

Pretending that that vote counts as "ending the war" when they voted to fully fund it, which we know for a FACT would end the war if they chose to defund it, and then saying that they have done as they promised and worked to end the war is lying to yourself.

You are trying to convince somebody, their name is Darla.

 

[Damocles]

I'm in favor of using every legislative trick in the book to end Bush's war. The Webb amendment was just one tool. A vote to defund the war was taken yesterday, and failed. The Webb amendment got 57 votes, but was killed. Timelines for withdrawl are getting majority votes but are getting killed. Some people are doing everything they can do End Bush's war. As Darla say, Democrats as lame as they are, are at least trying to do something. Its sad that they can only get 29 votes to defund the war, but every other option is being explored and tried, but keeps getting shot down by the GOP. Dems have been pretty lame, but its your party that is keeping this war going.

56 and the second one is 28 votes. Let's not count extras.

And 70 to 28 is pretty darned bipartisan, Cypress. It takes some self-convincing to pretend that the vote to continue the war is the same thing as an anti-war vote.

 

[uscitizen]

Damo is just being oblique again.

 

[Cypress]

56 and the second one is 28 votes. Let's not count extras.

And 70 to 28 is pretty darned bipartisan, Cypress. It takes some self-convincing to pretend that the vote to continue the war is the same thing as an anti-war vote.

Ten republican votes in the senate, and we begin implementing a plan to withdraw from Iraq. Its as simple as that.

Well, maybe 15 republican votes. To be veto proof.

 

[Damocles]

Damo is just being oblique again.

I am being direct. Voting to fund the war continues the war. Voting to defund the war stops it.

Oblique comes from those who say, "Well, the Webb Amendment didn't end the war but would have made it more difficult... and funding it isn't the same as continuing it!"

 

[Damocles]

Ten republican votes in the senate, and we begin implementing a plan to withdraw from Iraq. Its as simple as that.

Well, maybe 15 republican votes. To be veto proof.

It is more than 2/3 of the Senate, it is "veto-proof" you finally reached the magic number. Too bad it wasn't what you thought it would be.

 

[Bonestorm]

I know it wouldn't end the war. That much I know. Ending the war was what they voted against.

They knew the cloture count before taking the vote, that is political pandering.

Pretending that that vote counts as "ending the war" when they voted to fully fund it, which we know for a FACT would end the war if they chose to defund it, and then saying that they have done as they promised and worked to end the war is lying to yourself.

You are trying to convince somebody, their name is Darla.

You're so off base it's hilarious.

1) Your all-or-nothing approach is just plain stupid. I first thought is was naivete. I was wrong.

2) Your assertion that taking the cloture vote when they knew the outcome was political pandering is equally as stupid. Tell me wise one how you expect anyone to put pressure on those members of the Senate that refuse to do something to change Iraq policy when you don't know who they are. That's what taking votes is all about, forcing people to stake out a position.

3) See #1.

 

[Bonestorm]

It is more than 2/3 of the Senate, it is "veto-proof" you finally reached the magic number. Too bad it wasn't what you thought it would be.

Chucklehead, the same bill was voted on before, with similar results. Your "finally reached the magic number" comment, while cute, is once again way off base. Nice try.

 

[Damocles]

You're so off base it's hilarious.

1) Your all-or-nothing approach is just plain stupid. I first thought is was naivete. I was wrong.

2) Your assertion that taking the cloture vote when they knew the outcome was political pandering is equally as stupid. Tell me wise one how you expect anyone to put pressure on those members of the Senate that refuse to do something to change Iraq policy when you don't know who they are. That's what taking votes is all about, forcing people to stake out a position.

3) See #1.

Which is political pandering. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I note you attempt to obfuscate and deflect from the fact that it was not an amendment that would have ended the war, just made it more "difficult".

Yet the one that would have, and we know it would have lost and certainly passed cloture...

70 to 28.

 

[uscitizen]

Yep DH if a vote is never taken, we really do not know how someone will vote.
It is a good thing to know which ones are war supporters and which ones are not.

 

[Damocles]

Chucklehead, the same bill was voted on before, with similar results. Your "finally reached the magic number" comment, while cute, is once again way off base. Nice try.

Yes, it is a joke. But the sting is there because it has a hint of truth.

No matter how you try to spin it, that was a vote to continue the war.

 

[Damocles]

Yep DH if a vote is never taken, we really do not know how someone will vote.
It is a good thing to know which ones are war supporters and which ones are not.

Plus a cloture vote allows for continued debate on other items. They do this either to show a position or to just move on. In this case they were underlining their position on troop down-time after coming home.

The vote on funding, however, they more than passed cloture on.

 

[Cypress]

It is more than 2/3 of the Senate, it is "veto-proof" you finally reached the magic number.

Too bad it wasn't what you thought it would be.

I have no clue what you're talking about. Is this a slam on my arithmetic, Mr. Math whiz?

I said 15 republicans plus the fifty democrats would make it veto proof. Which is two off of 67, so are you quibbling about my math being off by two senators?