Did Christianity inhibit intellectual progress?

Cypress said:
Religion and spirituality aren't going anywhere, though they will continue to evolve as they have done for thousands of years.

I believe the fraction of the population who have a strictly materialistic and reductionist belief about reality are a tiny fraction of the population and always will be.
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I believe you are quite correct. Spirituality will not be going any where anytime soon. It seems our brains have a penchant for that. I always found the materialist view as being one that requires more discipline, like questioning every assumption we have about our perceptions.

I, myself, endeavor to be a materialist but I often fall far short of the goal. I'm prone to pareidolia like anyone else, and I anthropomorphize my pets like mad. I try to maintain some discipline and avoid concepts like "the meaning of life" (I don't believe there is one) or a "soul" or essence of what a person is that is separable from the physical brain's functioning. But it is always tempting to give into what feels like "mushier" thinking. Pour tons of sugar in the coffee of existence to make it "palatable" but I also realize that, indeed, the truth is lot stronger drink that doesn't always taste that good.
 
Cypress said:
The United States was the most literate nation on the planet in the 19th century, and that is largely because in the Protestant tradition of a priesthood of all believers, people were expected to be able to read their bibles.
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The other factoid about the Protestant tradition that vastly increased literacy was the insistence on printings bibles in the local vernacular languages. Martin Luther King insisted on a priesthood of all believers and that all christians should be able to read the bible for themselves.

Until the late Middle Ages, almost all books were written in Latin, which was essentially a dead language at that point, only accessible to scholars and the clergy. The mercantile and artisan classes couldn't have read in Latin even if they wanted to.
 
RB 60 said:
If the church dies, this country will become completely immoral.
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It is refreshing to see someone who believes that only THEIR religion has a lock on "morality". Does this include the morality of greed and avarice which defines much of the US ethos?

Why must the haters condemn those who help the poor and needy?
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Agreed. I always wonder why people vote Republican and demonize the side that wants to help the poor and needy.

Who handed out millions of pounds of food and necessities during the Chinese Disease shutdowns?
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Religion does good things. It also does horrible things. Atheists also do good things. Some of them do horrible things.

There's nothing in religion to stop someone from doing whatever evil is truly in their hearts and nothing in atheism to stop someone from doing whatever good is truly in their hearts. And vice versa.
 
Quincunx said:
I believe you are quite correct. Spirituality will not be going any where anytime soon. It seems our brains have a penchant for that. I always found the materialist view as being one that requires more discipline, like questioning every assumption we have about our perceptions.

I, myself, endeavor to be a materialist but I often fall far short of the goal. I'm prone to pareidolia like anyone else, and I anthropomorphize my pets like mad. I try to maintain some discipline and avoid concepts like "the meaning of life" (I don't believe there is one) or a "soul" or essence of what a person is that is separable from the physical brain's functioning. But it is always tempting to give into what feels like "mushier" thinking. Pour tons of sugar in the coffee of existence to make it "palatable" but I also realize that, indeed, the truth is lot stronger drink that doesn't always taste that good.
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Materialism, or physicalism, does not address the concept of meaning.
 
I never said MY religion had a lock on morality. Please read before you attempt a reply.

These days, I wonder why the hateful racist and bigoted left votes for dismantling this strong nation.

I never said they didn't, but I never seen atheists handing out food and necessities during the Chinese Disease lockdowns. Did you?

You did vice-versa them to begin with...
 
RB 60 said:
I never said MY religion had a lock on morality. Please read before you attempt a reply.

These days, I wonder why the hateful racist and bigoted left votes for dismantling this strong nation.

I never said they didn't, but I never seen atheists handing out food and necessities during the Chinese Disease lockdowns. Did you?

You did vice-versa them to begin with...
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Typical right wing Christian. Jesus was a capitalist.
 
BidenPresident said:
Christianity, in its intellectual iterations, didn’t replace Greek thought, Mr. Freeman argued in that earlier book, but adopted one part of it: that of Plato rather than Aristotle. Western thought consequently became inward, rational, deductive and “authoritarian,”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-re...n2l3tudgyt8&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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I do not know that it inhibited it, but it sure changed its focus. Some of the more regressive phases of Catholicism sure limited it.

The modern American Conservative "Christian" church is sure trying to limit intellectual progress, learning, beyond the bounds of what is acceptable to them is off limits.... book banning and limiting discussion in schools.

The kids I know who go to Jupiter Christen and Kings Academy do not have much of an education in classical literature or even techniques of critical thinking. If you say something that is different than the Republican party line, they will tell you how wrong you are, but they cannot say why.
 
RB 60 said:
I never said MY religion had a lock on morality. Please read before you attempt a reply.

These days, I wonder why the hateful racist and bigoted left votes for dismantling this strong nation.

I never said they didn't, but I never seen atheists handing out food and necessities during the Chinese Disease lockdowns. Did you?

You did vice-versa them to begin with...
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Before you get on your moral high horse, let's remember who has been passionately supporting a guy who cheats on all of his wives, and pays hush money to porn stars and to Playboy bunnies.

Taking history as a whole, there have never been very many atheists. They were always a tiny fraction of the population. So you can't expect them to have played some kind of enormous, outsized role in the history of human ethics. There just weren't enough of them.

But on the individual level, most nonbelievers have absorbed, even if only by osmosis, the ethical tradition of the cultures they existed in, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist.

Who cares if they stripped away the religious language from these ethical traditions? The important thing is that these ethical traditions have been infused into human societies for three thousand years
 
Quincunx said:
That presupposes that there is "meaning". I don't believe that there is any "meaning" to life, it just is. I also recognize that this is a very tiny minority view I hold. But it makes the most sense to me.
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I think the desire for meaning is natural for humans. I do not see anything about physicalism, or materialism, that contradicts this.
 
RB 60 said:
I never said MY religion had a lock on morality. Please read before you attempt a reply.
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You said that if the Church dies the country would be completely immoral. That seems to be much the same thing.

These days, I wonder why the hateful racist and bigoted left votes for dismantling this strong nation.
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What you see as "dismantling" is really just people trying to make our country as good as it can be. Many people prefer things the way they "were" (like slavery and grotesque levels of horrific racism or poor people starving in the streets while the wealthy reap rewards without limit...all the things that America WAS ...and in some ways still is.) Some of us think we can do better. We've come a long way and we've made ourselves better...but we are not yet there.

but I never seen atheists handing out food and necessities during the Chinese Disease lockdowns. Did you?
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Then you are simply blind. Sorry but atheists are at the food pantries. They are out there helping. Just because YOU don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.
 
BidenPresident said:
I think the desire for meaning in natural for humans. I do not see anything about physicalism, or materialism, that contradicts this.
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It does appear that humans have mental "short cuts" that result in finding things that aren't there. Our brains are tuned to recognize human faces. Which is why so many people see Jesus in burnt toast. This isn't a "bad" thing, just a case where natural systems result in unreal outputs.

You are correct that humans have a penchant for spirituality. I think of it as little more than "meaning seeking" for any given set of events. A storm destroys a town...how could it have happened? What does it 'mean'? It must mean that the god(s) are angry with us! A child dies from a disease. That's horrible. Why did it happen to this family but not that family? Must be a deeper reason.

That's all well and good. It doesn't necessarily mean that there IS some deeper meaning. But our massive brains are hard wired into making connections so that we may better survive. The fact that "spirituality" doesn't necessarily lead to BAD outcomes (in most cases) means it sticks around with us.

There's a mental illness called "OCD" in which the brain interprets anxiety as being a real input and so the brain looks around for something to apply the anxiety to resulting in some weird "magical thinking". Some people think it is that part of our brains that was necessary to our survival on the savannahs. There could be lions in the tall grass. Movement of the grass must be focused on as it might be an indicator of real danger. But nowadays we live in a different world, but we still have our brains which are tuned to find the "reasons" for our feelings. The power of our brains doesn't always mean they work perfectly.

All of this just really to say that while I don't believe there is anything beyond the physical universe, certainly no "meaning" to it all, but I totally accept that it is how our brains function. That there isn't really a chance that humans will ever give up their "spirituality" even if I fail to think it real.
 
Cypress said:
Before you get on your moral high horse, let's remember who has been passionately supporting a guy who cheats on all of his wives, and pays hush money to porn stars and to Playboy bunnies.

Taking history as a whole, there have never been very many atheists. They were always a tiny fraction of the population. So you can't expect them to have played some kind of enormous, outsized role in the history of human ethics. There just weren't enough of them.

But on the individual level, most nonbelievers have absorbed the ethical tradition of the cultures they existed in, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist.

Who cares if they stripped away the religious language from these ethical traditions? The important thing is that these ethical traditions have been infused into human societies by osmosis at a minimum for three thousand years
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I am not "passionately supporting" him, I didn't support Bill Clinton either.

You are going off on a tangent, now :rolleyes:

Anyone who comes to this country (all illegals should immediately be deported) should absorb our cultures, respect our flag, our traditions and learn our language.

Those of us who were taught the religious language from these ethical traditions. And if these ethical traditions have been infused into human societies by osmosis, why try to strip them away?

Damn, it's almost noon and I have things to do today! Good day.
 
Quincunx said:
It does appear that humans have mental "short cuts" that result in finding things that aren't there. Our brains are tuned to recognize human faces. Which is why so many people see Jesus in burnt toast. This isn't a "bad" thing, just a case where natural systems result in unreal outputs.

You are correct that humans have a penchant for spirituality. I think of it as little more than "meaning seeking" for any given set of events. A storm destroys a town...how could it have happened? What does it 'mean'? It must mean that the god(s) are angry with us! A child dies from a disease. That's horrible. Why did it happen to this family but not that family? Must be a deeper reason.

That's all well and good. It doesn't necessarily mean that there IS some deeper meaning. But our massive brains are hard wired into making connections so that we may better survive. The fact that "spirituality" doesn't necessarily lead to BAD outcomes (in most cases) means it sticks around with us.

There's a mental illness called "OCD" in which the brain interprets anxiety as being a real input and so the brain looks around for something to apply the anxiety to resulting in some weird "magical thinking". Some people think it is that part of our brains that was necessary to our survival on the savannahs. There could be lions in the tall grass. Movement of the grass must be focused on as it might be an indicator of real danger. But nowadays we live in a different world, but we still have our brains which are tuned to find the "reasons" for our feelings. The power of our brains doesn't always mean they work perfectly.

All of this just really to say that while I don't believe there is anything beyond the physical universe, certainly no "meaning" to it all, but I totally accept that it is how our brains function. That there isn't really a chance that humans will ever give up their "spirituality" even if I fail to think it real.
Click to expand...

Who cares what you think?
 
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