Did you know [i]1984[/i] was really about western liberalism?

[Tranquillus in Exile]

Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova was quizzed by a brave member of the public who suggested that Russia is living in a modern-day version of Orwell’s novel.

No, said Ms Zakharova. “We thought Orwell was describing totalitarianism.” (Well yeah, most of us did think that.) “This is a global fake,” Ms Zakharova explained. “Orwell wrote about how liberalism would lead humanity into a dead end.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...ge-orwell-wasnt-writing-totalitarianism-1984/


Good thing Putin is there to guide Russia, eh? Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is Slavery. War is a Special Military Operation. Got it!

 

[Flash]

Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova was quizzed by a brave member of the public who suggested that Russia is living in a modern-day version of Orwell’s novel.

No, said Ms Zakharova. “We thought Orwell was describing totalitarianism.” (Well yeah, most of us did think that.) “This is a global fake,” Ms Zakharova explained. “Orwell wrote about how liberalism would lead humanity into a dead end.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...ge-orwell-wasnt-writing-totalitarianism-1984/


Good thing Putin is there to guide Russia, eh? Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is Slavery. War is a Special Military Operation. Got it!

More Russian disinformation.

 

[Cypress]

Orwell was a lifelong committed democratic socialist, who fought in the Spanish civil war and saw both the dark side of Nazi-backed fascism and Soviet-backed communism there, and his novel was written in that context

 

[Walt]

Orwell was a lifelong committed democratic socialist, who fought in the Spanish civil war and saw both the dark side of Nazi-backed fascism and Soviet-backed communism there, and his novel was written in that context

Orwell believed socialist liberalism was the only defense against the excesses of Soviet style communism. That opinion is in 1984, but not super clear. It is super clear in The Lion and the Unicorn.

Putin is getting desperate to rewrite history.

 

[Cypress]

Orwell believed socialist liberalism was the only defense against the excesses of Soviet style communism. That opinion is in 1984, but not super clear. It is super clear in The Lion and the Unicorn.

Putin is getting desperate to rewrite history.

On balance, social democrats and liberals were the most committed and effective opponents of Soviet totalitarian communism. Because their opposition was based on ideas and principles like human rights, freedom, democracy.

Conservatives mainly hated communism because they feared communists would take their money and wealth

 

[Walt]

On balance, social democrats and liberals were the most committed and effective opponents of Soviet totalitarian communism. Because their opposition was based on ideas and principles like human rights, freedom, democracy.

Conservatives mainly hated communism because they feared communists would take their money and wealth

You are correct.

I cannot say I completely agree with Orwell, but I do understand his ideology. He saw no future in pure capitalism. The question was whether there was going to be Soviet style totalitarianism, or British style social democracy. While I do not like my capitalism too hardcore, I can see a future for capitalism. It does keep innovation going.

 

[Lightbringer]

Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova was quizzed by a brave member of the public who suggested that Russia is living in a modern-day version of Orwell’s novel.

No, said Ms Zakharova. “We thought Orwell was describing totalitarianism.” (Well yeah, most of us did think that.) “This is a global fake,” Ms Zakharova explained. “Orwell wrote about how liberalism would lead humanity into a dead end.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...ge-orwell-wasnt-writing-totalitarianism-1984/


Good thing Putin is there to guide Russia, eh? Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is Slavery. War is a Special Military Operation. Got it!

Actually, everyone is wrong...and right.

 

[Lightbringer]

You are correct.

I cannot say I completely agree with Orwell, but I do understand his ideology. He saw no future in pure capitalism. The question was whether there was going to be Soviet style totalitarianism, or British style social democracy. While I do not like my capitalism too hardcore, I can see a future for capitalism. It does keep innovation going.

Oh, that was "British Style?"

 

[Matt Dillon]

Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova was quizzed by a brave member of the public who suggested that Russia is living in a modern-day version of Orwell’s novel.

No, said Ms Zakharova. “We thought Orwell was describing totalitarianism.” (Well yeah, most of us did think that.) “This is a global fake,” Ms Zakharova explained. “Orwell wrote about how liberalism would lead humanity into a dead end.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-n...ge-orwell-wasnt-writing-totalitarianism-1984/


Good thing Putin is there to guide Russia, eh? Ignorance is Strength. Freedom is Slavery. War is a Special Military Operation. Got it!

Big Brother is watching you.

 

[Walt]

Oh, that was "British Style?"

Mitterrand was a French style socialist who lectured the Germans that they should not turn down American nuclear weapons, but should ask for more. There are a lot of different things going on here.

 

[Lightbringer]

Mitterrand was a French style socialist who lectured the Germans that they should not turn down American nuclear weapons, but should ask for more. There are a lot of different things going on here.

You didn't mention the British at all Walty.

 

[Walt]

You didn't mention the British at all Walty.

George Orwell was British. He wrote a whole book called The Lion and the Unicorn(symbols of British government) about how British style socialism would be different from Soviet style communism. Basically his point was that British liberalism would save Britain from a future like 1984.

If you have a problem with Orwell's ideology, kill yourself so you can bring it up with him in person.

 

[Lightbringer]

George Orwell was British. He wrote a whole book called The Lion and the Unicorn(symbols of British government) about how British style socialism would be different from Soviet style communism. Basically his point was that British liberalism would save Britain from a future like 1984.

If you have a problem with Orwell's ideology, kill yourself so you can bring it up with him in person.

I don't have a problem with Orwell...I have a problem with you. You say shit and then when called out on it you wait two or three times to respond and when you do respond it's with some wikipedia bullshit.

You said...British...you still haven't actually answered that Walty. And at this point I think it's safe to assume you never will. Stop being a pussy walty

 

[Walt]

I don't have a problem with Orwell...I have a problem with you.

Have I misstated Orwell's position? It has been a couple of decades since I read his books, but I do remember them relatively clearly. Have you read any of his books?

You said...British...you still haven't actually answered that Walty.

I have answered this several times. I do not know why you have failed to understand. Orwell wrote in The Lion and the Unicorn how the special liberalism of the British would be a defense against totalitarianism. He was a great fan of British socialism, being a British socialist himself. He did not like Soviet Communism, having seen what they did.

I do not think you are disagreeing with my synopsis of the book, or have even heard of the book before I brought it up. You seem angry at me for what is in the book, when I did not write it, just read it.

 

[Walt]

You didn't mention the British at all Walty.

You said...British...you still haven't actually answered that Walty.

You are bouncing all around. One second you are saying I did not mention the British, and the next you are claiming I did.

Very simply put, Orwell felt that British liberalism, and British tradition could create a moderate socialism that respected individual rights. He basically envisioned the best system being the Western European welfare state of the second half of the 20th century, with a moderately interventionist government in business, basic lowest standards for the welfare of the people, and also strong individual liberties. He gave credit to the British for inventing such a system.

I disagree with Orwell by degrees, but probably not nearly as much as Guille does. But Guille just looks stupid when he debates whether I said British or not. Orwell was very British, and saw British solutions as the solutions that the world should use.

 

[Tranquillus in Exile]

Oh, that was "British Style?"

I don't understand your objection to the term "British style social democracy".

Orwell was an active member of the British Labour Party. In 1945-1951 the British Labour government established the foundations of the welfare state, including universal healthcare free at the point of use.

Most of the developed world now has something similar. Except America, where people are taught to regard it as tantamount to communism. It isn't.

 

[Lightbringer]

I don't understand your objection to the term "British style social democracy".

Orwell was an active member of the British Labour Party. In 1945-1951 the British Labour government established the foundations of the welfare state, including universal healthcare free at the point of use.

Most of the developed world now has something similar. Except America, where people are taught to regard it as tantamount to communism. It isn't.

My objection is that tyranny is what it is, it has existed as long as man has existed and trying to paint something as British style is just an admission you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's an attempt by stupid people to sound smart.

 

[Walt]

My objection is that tyranny is what it is, it has existed as long as man has existed and trying to paint something as British style is just an admission you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. It's an attempt by stupid people to sound smart.

Orwell saw British style liberalism as the best defense against tyranny. I assume you see American style conservatism as the best defense against tyranny. My only question is why does it upset you so much that people are allowed to disagree with you?

 

[Walt]

I recall reading an article from an American magazine c. 1950 (can’t find it now but it was a ‘popular’ magazine, not political, lots of girly pics). It explained that, although Britain had a welfare state, universal healthcare and nationalized industries (since privatized), that didn’t mean it was communist. Indeed, Britain was America’s closest ally against Soviet communism.

That’s telling the rubes.

The British, and the rest of Western Europe, definitely institutionalized mild socialism, with a lot of market input, and a lot of protections of individual rights. They did what Orwell supported, and it did not lead to totalitarianism.

 

[Minister of Truth]

You are correct.

I cannot say I completely agree with Orwell, but I do understand his ideology. He saw no future in pure capitalism. The question was whether there was going to be Soviet style totalitarianism, or British style social democracy. While I do not like my capitalism too hardcore, I can see a future for capitalism. It does keep innovation going.

Anyone committed to liberalism needs to accept that market liberalism is part of the package.