APP - Do Conservatives lack Freewill

[midcan5]

Yeah we get it. You liberals are the smartest coolest kids in class and conservatives with their crazy notions of individual liberty and personal responsibility are just CRAZY....

Playing victim is another example of the lack of freedom in the American conservative today, you hear it on radio, you heard from Palin et al, and you read it online. Sad really. Immature at best.

As for your other whines, do you buy American? Do you support sex education? Our cars are made in Michigan are yours? Funny how you guys can whine but do nothing constructive for the nation and our people? Do you support a fair wage? Do you shop in Walmart? Look only at the useless House of reps today.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?27455-Rich-And-Poor-Jobs-And-Wages

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?40394-Proof-That-God-Exists&p=1006438#post1006438

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...ica-s-Religious-Terrorists&highlight=abortion

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Playing victim is another example of the lack of freedom in the American conservative today, you hear it on radio, you heard from Palin et al, and you read it online. Sad really. Immature at best.

As for your other whines, do you buy American? Do you support sex education? Our cars are made in Michigan are yours? Funny how you guys can whine but do nothing constructive for the nation and our people? Do you support a fair wage? Do you shop in Walmart? Look only at the useless House of reps today.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?27455-Rich-And-Poor-Jobs-And-Wages

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?40394-Proof-That-God-Exists&p=1006438#post1006438

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...ica-s-Religious-Terrorists&highlight=abortion

Not sure how you inferred that I am "playing the victim", but what the heck. This is as they say "your party".

Do I buy American? I am sure I buy American products, but that doesn't factor into any of my purchasing decisions and there is no reason that it should

Are my cars made in Michigan? Not sure. I never asked. And it matters little to me if they are. I drive a Ford F250, my wife drives a Chevy Suburban. I guess we can assume that they were made in Michigan, but like I said, that had ZERO weight into my decision. I have owned foreign cars in the past.

You say I don't do anything "constructive". I guess you don't count working and paying taxes as constructive. I also give a great deal of money to charity and volunteer my time to help others. Maybe that doesn't count in this wonderful liberal land you live in.

Define a "fair wage". I support people being paid whatever they are willing to accept from an employer.

Of course I shop at Walmart. Why wouldn't I? Walmart has done more to help the poor in this country than anything gobblement has done. Walmart has improved the poors standard of living. Gobblement destroys it.

But, I get it. You liberals are the bestest, coolest cats in school. I only hope Deshy asks me to homecoming.

 

[midcan5]

Still playing the victim card - since you think liberals are the coolest, smartest people, why don't you join / listen to them? Could it be you're not serious. Stop following the right wing corporate victim bandwagon parade.

Glad to hear you're doing some constructive things, that's great, my point is the right has always fought on the side of power over the working class and the poor. A fair wage is something Walmart does not support, they have killed more jobs as they became billionaires. Employee turnover is ridiculous, and if you are really interested lots of links below. Good to see you support GM and Ford, there may be hope for you yet. You don't have to come all the way over to that bad liberal side either. lol

http://ourfuture.org/20130906/employers-fought-to-keep-workers-poor-now-workers-are-fighting-back
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/09/07-3
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2013/09/06
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/walmarts-internal-compensation-plan_n_2145086.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/business/wal-mart-cuts-some-health-care-benefits.html
http://www.amazon.com/Wal-Mart-Effe...ming/dp/0143038788/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8
http://walmartwatch.com/
http://www.walmartmovie.com/

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Still playing the victim card - since you think liberals are the coolest, smartest people, why don't you join / listen to them? Could it be you're not serious. Stop following the right wing corporate victim bandwagon parade.

Glad to hear you're doing some constructive things, that's great, my point is the right has always fought on the side of power over the working class and the poor. A fair wage is something Walmart does not support, they have killed more jobs as they became billionaires. Employee turnover is ridiculous, and if you are really interested lots of links below. Good to see you support GM and Ford, there may be hope for you yet. You don't have to come all the way over to that bad liberal side either. lol

http://ourfuture.org/20130906/employers-fought-to-keep-workers-poor-now-workers-are-fighting-back
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/09/07-3
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2013/09/06
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/walmarts-internal-compensation-plan_n_2145086.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/business/wal-mart-cuts-some-health-care-benefits.html
http://www.amazon.com/Wal-Mart-Effe...ming/dp/0143038788/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8
http://walmartwatch.com/
http://www.walmartmovie.com/

Not sure what you mean by the whole "victim" thing. I merely am commenting that you like most liberals think that you are superior to others. I on the other hand fall on the side of freedom and individual liberty. Something that is anathema to liberals.

I guess you haven't realized by now that I have been mocking you, but that is OK. You libbies are the coolest kids on JPP. Your ideas are so superior. Just look at Detroit, Philthydelphia and Chicago. Cities where liberals have ruled for generations. There is nothing but prosperity, ZERO crime and money growing on trees.

I love how you think you lefties are for the little guy. I think it is cute.

 

[Don Quixote]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that consciousness guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

while i agree with you in general, but disagree with in specifics.

while i am a social progressive, i am also a fiscal conservative.

 

[midcan5]

Not sure what you mean by the whole "victim" thing. I merely am commenting that you like most liberals think that you are superior to others. I on the other hand fall on the side of freedom and individual liberty. Something that is anathema to liberals.

That comment always amazes me given the fact conservatives are the first to impose their standards on others. http://www.regressiveantidote.net/Articles/If_Conservatism_Is_The_Ideology_of_Freedom.html

A victim is a poor soul whose only argument is they are not understood by some imaginary elitists. If only you understood us. Bah humbug we see your attempts to control people and ideas constantly.

while i agree with you in general, but disagree with in specifics.

while i am a social progressive, i am also a fiscal conservative.

I agree, it is simply the brain washed American conservative that this thread applies to. 'Conservative' in America has come to be taken over by 'power.'

 

[Auster]

'Conservative' in America has come to be taken over by 'power.'

This, good sir, is todays WTF. Congratulations for making the list!

 

[midcan5]

This, good sir, is todays WTF. Congratulations for making the list!

I'm always happy when I make some list, is this a good or bad list? Does it matter, hmm, money power in the form of think tanks and media sources controls much of the mind of America today. The journey to here is a fascinating one for the student of ideas. A few commentaries below. Hopefully you will take the time to learn how you've come to believe what you've come to believe. Or maybe it's more comfortable believing?

"The rise of conservative politics in postwar America is one of the great puzzles of American political history. For much of the period that followed the end of World War II, conservative ideas about the primacy of the free market, and the dangers of too-powerful labor unions, government regulation, and an activist, interventionist state seemed to have been thoroughly rejected by most intellectual and political elites. Scholars and politicians alike dismissed those who adhered to such faiths as a "radical right," for whom to quote the Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter politics "becomes an arena into which the wildest fancies are projected, the most paranoid suspicions, the most absurd superstitions, the most bizarre apocalyptic fantasies." How, then, did such ideas move from their marginal position in the middle years of the twentieth century to become the reigning politics of the country by the century's end?" Kim Phillips-Fein ('Invisible Hands')


"Yet, more recently, as William Connolly and others have demonstrated, Christian religion and capitalist economics have again been fused tightly in the extreme conservative movement that has captured the Republican Party. This, I believe, is the main reason that so much of their economic reasoning appears irrational and in direct violation of mainstream economics. It disregards almost all available evidence regarding the efficacy of their specific, or more appropriately, often unspecific, economic policy proposals." http://contemporarycondition.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-church-of-capitalism-why-right-wing.html

"It was 1993, during congressional debate over the North American Free Trade Agreement. I was having lunch with a staffer for one of the rare Republican congressmen who opposed the policy of so-called free trade. To this day, I remember something my colleague said: “The rich elites of this country have far more in common with their counterparts in London, Paris, and Tokyo than with their fellow American citizens.” That was only the beginning of the period when the realities of outsourced manufacturing, financialization of the economy, and growing income disparity started to seep into the public consciousness, so at the time it seemed like a striking and novel statement." Mike Lofgren http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revolt-of-the-rich/

"Television and radio, though, had a homogenizing effect on the right, and the tension between class (with a high tone) and ideology (rabble rousing) worked itself out, with the millionaires learning how to sound angry and enjoy it, and the grassroots getting trained to accept anger as a substitute for policy results. The populist New Right and Buchananite right lost their manpower to Roger Ailes, while the elite right gave up the fight for realism and broadmindedness." Daniel McCarthy
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-conservatism-lost-its-mind/


Whenever conservative republicans mention freedom think of those ten hand. http://www.regressiveantidote.net/Articles/If_Conservatism_Is_The_Ideology_of_Freedom.html

 

[canceled.2021.1]

That comment always amazes me given the fact conservatives are the first to impose their standards on others. http://www.regressiveantidote.net/Articles/If_Conservatism_Is_The_Ideology_of_Freedom.html

A victim is a poor soul whose only argument is they are not understood by some imaginary elitists. If only you understood us. Bah humbug we see your attempts to control people and ideas constantly.




I agree, it is simply the brain washed American conservative that this thread applies to. 'Conservative' in America has come to be taken over by 'power.'

Your link was cute albeit nothing original it was a collection of left wing memes that have been trotted out over the years. I particularly like how they try to loosely align conservative with everything he sees as bad and liberal with everything that is good.

You make it easy to mock you when I say "liberals are the coolest kids in school".

I am no victim. I don't need you to understand me, nor do I suspect you have the capacity or desire to do so. I just enjoy mocking your self professed elitist bullshit

 

[midcan5]

Below is another piece supporting the contention of the OP that conservatives today in America lack freedom to think on their own. A lack of freewill or responsible decision making. I've repeated how those ten hands rose as if some puppet master pulled their strings, the below outlines the string controllers.

"Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.... It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html


Consider too the comment from one conservative republican in the house that they did not even know what they would get out their radical shutdown. Again an example of a lack of responsible thought. Blind followers instead of leaders.

"[P]eople like the Republican in the House who said he and his colleagues “have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is."" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/opinion/collins-frankenstein-goes-to-congress.html

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Below is another piece supporting the contention of the OP that conservatives today in America lack freedom to think on their own. A lack of freewill or responsible decision making. I've repeated how those ten hands rose as if some puppet master pulled their strings, the below outlines the string controllers.

"Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.... It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html


Consider too the comment from one conservative republican in the house that they did not even know what they would get out their radical shutdown. Again an example of a lack of responsible thought. Blind followers instead of leaders.

"[P]eople like the Republican in the House who said he and his colleagues “have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is."" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/opinion/collins-frankenstein-goes-to-congress.html

Well if you say so.

 

[Lorca]

Is it possible to lack freewill: the basic idea that consciousness guides your decisions. I think it is certainly worth our consideration. It may just be that conservatives lack the capacity both genetically and culturally to exhibit freewill. This interplay of genes and culture make them easily susceptible to the influence of ideas that oppose change or revision. Most cognitive processes never reach consciousness, thus if you are conservative, thought would require an awareness you are not capable of. Given the widespread power of their media today, you witness an opposition to change repeated over and over again. No rational discussion is possible when you have the answer already. The final question becomes, are conservatives then a threat to a dynamic, open, democratic society?

See 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

I've seen them try to correlate conservatism with genetics but that's all it was and it was very circumspect. I think it's more 'environmental' than inborn.

Find the correlation between families and post data on that.

I only have anecdotal data of course. I come from conservative, Republican parents. I tend more toward liberal and Democratic lines. I started out a Republican and changed (for the most part) after the 1980 election for Reagan. Who among us doesnt see families completely split re: parties or conservative/liberal?

I think life changes more people than any type of genetic predisposition.

 

[Lorca]

Having read quite a bit on Islam and the societies that integrate that into their culture, I found one thing very interesting and troubling.

But it seems to run in fundamentalist type conservatives as well. In Islam, in the fundamentalist societies, they reject free will and believe that society and laws should be used to FORCE people to act in a certain way. In this way, it's almost like zero tolerance policies....someone ELSE makes all your decisions for you and (you hope) forces others to make as well. Instead of free will, they rely on the state...often run by religious men or laws....to MAKE people adhere to laws based on personal choices, rather than allowing individuals to do so thru free will.

I've read this a few times. In one case, it was a biography of a woman who was a hostage in the Phillipines for a yr and had a day to day relationship with her Muslim captors. They explained this to her several times.

They preferred to have others take personal responsibility away and in its place, use punitive sanctions on those who broke Allah's laws. They preferred this and expected it for themselves as well. Like needing and preferring structure.

I think that any social conservative that wants the govt in America (fed or state) to make laws based on people's private choices (that do not infringe on the rights of others) is looking for this as well.

 

[Minister of Truth]

I'm always happy when I make some list, is this a good or bad list? Does it matter, hmm, money power in the form of think tanks and media sources controls much of the mind of America today. The journey to here is a fascinating one for the student of ideas. A few commentaries below. Hopefully you will take the time to learn how you've come to believe what you've come to believe. Or maybe it's more comfortable believing?

I guess that depends on your opinion, as there is no right or wrong, but merely your perspective.

 

[Don Quixote]

Having read quite a bit on Islam and the societies that integrate that into their culture, I found one thing very interesting and troubling.

But it seems to run in fundamentalist type conservatives as well. In Islam, in the fundamentalist societies, they reject free will and believe that society and laws should be used to FORCE people to act in a certain way. In this way, it's almost like zero tolerance policies....someone ELSE makes all your decisions for you and (you hope) forces others to make as well. Instead of free will, they rely on the state...often run by religious men or laws....to MAKE people adhere to laws based on personal choices, rather than allowing individuals to do so thru free will.

I've read this a few times. In one case, it was a biography of a woman who was a hostage in the Phillipines for a yr and had a day to day relationship with her Muslim captors. They explained this to her several times.

They preferred to have others take personal responsibility away and in its place, use punitive sanctions on those who broke Allah's laws. They preferred this and expected it for themselves as well. Like needing and preferring structure.

I think that any social conservative that wants the govt in America (fed or state) to make laws based on people's private choices (that do not infringe on the rights of others) is looking for this as well.

i go with environment or nurture, i have been an anarchist, dem, rep and independent

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Having read quite a bit on Islam and the societies that integrate that into their culture, I found one thing very interesting and troubling.

But it seems to run in fundamentalist type conservatives as well. In Islam, in the fundamentalist societies, they reject free will and believe that society and laws should be used to FORCE people to act in a certain way.

You mean like forcing people to use certain light bulbs or drive certain cars or use certain energy sources or force people to buy insurance? Those types of fundamentalist acts? Is that what you are talking about? Cuz if so, you are right, conservatives are always trying to force people to buy SmartCars

In this way, it's almost like zero tolerance policies....someone ELSE makes all your decisions for you and (you hope) forces others to make as well. Instead of free will, they rely on the state...often run by religious men or laws....to MAKE people adhere to laws based on personal choices, rather than allowing individuals to do so thru free will.

I've read this a few times. In one case, it was a biography of a woman who was a hostage in the Phillipines for a yr and had a day to day relationship with her Muslim captors. They explained this to her several times.

They preferred to have others take personal responsibility away and in its place, use punitive sanctions on those who broke Allah's laws. They preferred this and expected it for themselves as well. Like needing and preferring structure.

I think that any social conservative that wants the govt in America (fed or state) to make laws based on people's private choices (that do not infringe on the rights of others) is looking for this as well.

This is laughable. Apparently your worldview about legislating personal choices revolves around abortion and homo's.

You think nothing of the personal choices that lefties legislate. Oh yeah, you are doing it for everyone's own good and you have noble purposes. I forgot

 

[Lorca]

This is laughable. Apparently your worldview about legislating personal choices revolves around abortion and homo's.

You think nothing of the personal choices that lefties legislate. Oh yeah, you are doing it for everyone's own good and you have noble purposes. I forgot

What personal choices are the Democrats or liberals trying to legislate? I'm sure there are some but we are talking about the social conservative's signature move here.

What are some examples for Dems/liberals? I can put Affirmative Action and the consequent anti-discrimination laws possibly in that category but those apply to employers/businesses open to the public....not true 'personal' choices but I see the overlap there. Generally social conservatism is about legislating morals. HIring/serving people you dont agree with doesnt seem to affect your own morals.

And since conservatives arent forced to have abortions or be gay, I think they are just more areas they should keep out of.

 

[Lorca]

You mean like forcing people to use certain light bulbs or drive certain cars or use certain energy sources or force people to buy insurance? Those types of fundamentalist acts? Is that what you are talking about? Cuz if so, you are right, conservatives are always trying to force people to buy SmartCars

Lead-based gas, terrible pollution that literally killed people, asbestos, etc were all 'phased out' too. Most of what you named is to to encourage more of the same and you are not forced to do so...nor are the car companies forced to create them (for ex.). It's called 'incentives.' $$$$$$

As for insurance, is that a liberal construct? Please demonstrate. It's BIG business. HUGE lobby. Who are they lobbying in DC?

(I know it was super-intrusive into people's lives when it was legislated to take lead out of paint and save all those kids from mental retardation,)

 

[canceled.2021.1]

What personal choices are the Democrats or liberals trying to legislate? I'm sure there are some but we are talking about the social conservative's signature move here.

What are some examples for Dems/liberals? I can put Affirmative Action and the consequent anti-discrimination laws possibly in that category but those apply to employers/businesses open to the public....not true 'personal' choices but I see the overlap there. Generally social conservatism is about legislating morals. HIring/serving people you dont agree with doesnt seem to affect your own morals.

And since conservatives arent forced to have abortions or be gay, I think they are just more areas they should keep out of.

I went back and re-read your post that I responded to and you didn't specify "social" conservatives. You were speaking broadly about free will. Now you may have thought that is what you meant in your head, but you didn't specify it in your post.

As for social conservatism being about legislating morals, doesn't everyone do that? I mean, when we were getting this healthcare abomination forced down our throats Obama made a "moral" argument that everyone should be covered. What is the difference?

 

[canceled.2021.1]

Lead-based gas, terrible pollution that literally killed people, asbestos, etc were all 'phased out' too. Most of what you named is to to encourage more of the same and you are not forced to do so...nor are the car companies forced to create them (for ex.). It's called 'incentives.' $$$$$$

As for insurance, is that a liberal construct? Please demonstrate. It's BIG business. HUGE lobby. Who are they lobbying in DC?

(I know it was super-intrusive into people's lives when it was legislated to take lead out of paint and save all those kids from mental retardation,)

Seems like you are admitting that lefties legislate choices away from people. Who is always opposing school choice? That would be lefties. Who opposes privatizing social security to give people choices to fund their own retirement? Oh yeah, that would be democrats. You have to be forced into social security. You don't have a choice.

Now, since you make the claim that all of those things you legislate is to save lives, then I could make the argument that banning abortions is to save the life of an unborn baby that is being murdered. Additionally, I could argue that we need to outlaw homosexuality since that behavioral choice is a leading risk factor for contracting AIDS and dying. So if we can save the life of just ONE HOMOSEXUAL, we should outlaw homosexual behavior.

That is your argument right?