APP - Do we need "morality"?

Celticguy said:
Thats eight reasons that all contributed. Look at the reasons and you can see that some influenced others. But morals were the start of building and lack the behinning of the end.
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If I'd wanted to read the History Channel's views on the decline of the Roman Empire, I could have.

That's not the subject of this thread, nor does it address the question I'm asking.

Is morality necessary?

I'm not after hyperlinks, I want to discuss the question. What are your thoughts on the subject?
 
Legion said:
If I'd wanted to read the History Channel's views on the decline of the Roman Empire, I could have.

That's not the subject of this thread, nor does it address the question I'm asking.

Is morality necessary?

I'm not after hyperlinks, I want to discuss the question. What are your thoughts on the subject?
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I already gave my thoughts. Perhaps you could do the same. I dont enjoy watching videos.
 
Celticguy said:
I already gave my thoughts. Perhaps you could do the same. I dont enjoy watching videos.
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The debate video I posted may help you understand the nature of my question. If you don't watch it, that's OK.

It mat be difficult for you to understand the premise of the debate if you don't, though.

My thoughts are as follows: the concept of "morality" seems to be a variable social construct which is not necessary to human survival.
 
"Necessary" vs. "Necessary for human survival"
Two separate things in my mind.
So onto the new question...
Without morality that survival part gets dodgy.
Shaka Zulu preferred killing prisoners as opposed to lording over them. Sort of ok for his people he gave the territory to but hell on wheels for the rest and in the end he lost it all. Lost it to civilization that embraced morality.
Yes the concept varies some.
 
Celticguy said:
"Necessary" vs. "Necessary for human survival"
Two separate things in my mind.
So onto the new question...
Without morality that survival part gets dodgy.
Shaka Zulu preferred killing prisoners as opposed to lording over them. Sort of ok for his people he gave the territory to but hell on wheels for the rest and in the end he lost it all. Lost it to civilization that embraced morality.
Yes the concept varies some.
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Interesting. Didn't the "civilization that embraced morality" also lose their Empire?
 
Legion said:
I don't believe it should be. I don't consider that any belief system's interpretation of ancient events should be accepted unquestionably, and the assertion that "this country is still considered to be Christian" is debatable.

It's a matter of perspective. I'm not asking for theological opinions alone, I'm asking for a philosophic discussion of the question: Is morality necessary?
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I answered your question from one perspective. Whether you accept it as a legitimate answer or not is up to you, it's your thread.
 
Legion said:
Interesting. Didn't the "civilization that embraced morality" also lose their Empire?
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Not really, English is still the power language. One colony supplanted Jolly Olde but the bloc still holds sway.
For now...
If we abandon our morality down we go too.
 
Celticguy said:
Not really, English is still the power language. One colony supplanted Jolly Olde but the bloc still holds sway. For now... If we abandon our morality down we go too.
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Correlation does not equal causation, even if your assessment is correct, which is debatable.
 
Celticguy said:
Fun expression but doesnt really fit. Zulus are gone, western civilization lives.
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I think you'll find that logic always fits in any rational discussion.

Zulus are far from "gone". Zululand is one of the 11 district municipalities of KwaZulu-Natal province. The seat of Zululand is Ulundi. The majority of its 803,575 people speak IsiZulu. It is part of a larger historical area also known as Zululand.

You've now extrapolated the British Empire into the whole of Western civilization.
 
First I think this should be in another topic category. A discussion thread on philosophy and thought or even morals and religion?


Of course we need morality if morality is seen as a way and means to the good life or the fair life for all. That seems obvious and as one of the speakers mentioned it is custom or mores. But humans can manipulate ideas of morality and fairness to mean the opposite of good or fair. Justice enters and makes this question more complex. Morality is about right and wrong and while we may disagree on the edges most people know what wrongs are, they just don't always adhere to them for personal reasons or to use an old concept evil or the devil. But as we reach down into more simple life issues we tend to lose the big picture and get into relativism or apply morality to what is simply tact or interpersonal behaviors. The odd thing for me is if we/you have to ask is it necessary, we have to posit a world without it. That world is not for me.

"We have, in fact, two kinds of morality side by side: one which we preach but do not practise, and another which we practise but seldom preach." Bertrand Russell

"It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism." H. L. Mencken

"Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right." H. L. Mencken

"What was more, Hume ‘said flatly that the morality of every religion was bad, and … that when he heard a man was religious, he concluded he was a rascal, though he had known some instances of very good men being religious.’"

https://aeon.co/essays/why-atheists-erect-monuments-to-honour-freedom-and-reason

"Politics is opposed to morality, as philosophy to naivete." Emmanuel Levinas

"Consciousness permits us to develop the instruments of culture - morality and justice, religion, art, economics and politics, science and technology. Those instruments allow us some measure of freedom in the confrontation with nature." Antonio Damasio

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Marcus Aurelius
 
midcan5 said:
First I think this should be in another topic category. A discussion thread on philosophy and thought or even morals and religion?


Of course we need morality if morality is seen as a way and means to the good life or the fair life for all. That seems obvious and as one of the speakers mentioned it is custom or mores. But humans can manipulate ideas of morality and fairness to mean the opposite of good or fair. Justice enters and makes this question more complex. Morality is about right and wrong and while we may disagree on the edges most people know what wrongs are, they just don't always adhere to them for personal reasons or to use an old concept evil or the devil. But as we reach down into more simple life issues we tend to lose the big picture and get into relativism or apply morality to what is simply tact or interpersonal behaviors. The odd thing for me is if we/you have to ask is it necessary, we have to posit a world without it. That world is not for me.

"We have, in fact, two kinds of morality side by side: one which we preach but do not practise, and another which we practise but seldom preach." Bertrand Russell

"It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism." H. L. Mencken

"Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right." H. L. Mencken

"What was more, Hume ‘said flatly that the morality of every religion was bad, and … that when he heard a man was religious, he concluded he was a rascal, though he had known some instances of very good men being religious.’"

https://aeon.co/essays/why-atheists-erect-monuments-to-honour-freedom-and-reason

"Politics is opposed to morality, as philosophy to naivete." Emmanuel Levinas

"Consciousness permits us to develop the instruments of culture - morality and justice, religion, art, economics and politics, science and technology. Those instruments allow us some measure of freedom in the confrontation with nature." Antonio Damasio

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." Marcus Aurelius
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Who defines morality, and is it moral to impose a personal or religious definition on others?

Many who have claimed to be moral have not been so according to the standards of morality defined by others.

If actions are said to be moral, how is that conclusion arrived at?

It's been said that winners write history in keeping with their moral outlook. Is that moral?
 
Legion said:
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Yes here is why.

"Morals
Morals are the prevailing standards of behavior that enable people to live cooperatively in groups. Moral refers to what societies sanction as right and acceptable.
Most people tend to act morally and follow societal guidelines. Morality often requires that people sacrifice their own short-term interests for the benefit of society. People or entities that are indifferent to right and wrong are considered amoral, while those who do evil acts are considered immoral.
While some moral principles seem to transcend time and culture, such as fairness, generally speaking, morality is not fixed. Morality describes the particular values of a specific group at a specific point in time. Historically, morality has been closely connected to religious traditions, but today its significance is equally important to the secular world. For example, businesses and government agencies have codes of ethics that employees are expected to follow.
Some philosophers make a distinction between morals and ethics. But many people use the terms morals and ethics interchangeably when talking about personal beliefs, actions, or principles. For example, it’s common to say, “My morals prevent me from cheating.” It’s also common to use ethics in this sentence instead.
So, morals are the principles that guide individual conduct within society. And, while morals may change over time, they remain the standards of behavior that we use to judge right and wrong."
https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/morals
 
Eagle-Eye said:
Yes here is why.

"Morals
Morals are the prevailing standards of behavior that enable people to live cooperatively in groups. Moral refers to what societies sanction as right and acceptable.
Most people tend to act morally and follow societal guidelines. Morality often requires that people sacrifice their own short-term interests for the benefit of society. People or entities that are indifferent to right and wrong are considered amoral, while those who do evil acts are considered immoral.
While some moral principles seem to transcend time and culture, such as fairness, generally speaking, morality is not fixed. Morality describes the particular values of a specific group at a specific point in time. Historically, morality has been closely connected to religious traditions, but today its significance is equally important to the secular world. For example, businesses and government agencies have codes of ethics that employees are expected to follow.
Some philosophers make a distinction between morals and ethics. But many people use the terms morals and ethics interchangeably when talking about personal beliefs, actions, or principles. For example, it’s common to say, “My morals prevent me from cheating.” It’s also common to use ethics in this sentence instead.
So, morals are the principles that guide individual conduct within society. And, while morals may change over time, they remain the standards of behavior that we use to judge right and wrong."
https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/morals
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This jumped out, EE.

"Morality is not fixed. Morality describes the particular values of a specific group at a specific point in time. Historically, morality has been closely connected to religious traditions..."

It appears that morality is a loosely-defined version of a social contract which is unwritten, dynamic, and unenforceable.

"Do as I say, not as I do" is a common way of pointing out hypocrisy.

Do we need to pay lip service to a concept like that?
 
StoneByStone said:
How so? We have laws banning things that society has decided are immoral.
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I disagree.

quote-morality-cannot-be-legislated-but-behavior-can-be-regulated-judicial-decrees-may-not-martin-luther-king-36-63-46.jpg
 
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