Document confirms US told Russia NATO won’t expand

DEMS are toast said:
Trump
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Flash said:
A formal treaty ratified by the Senate? I can find no such treaty:

"Russia was a participant in these new security arrangements, and was keen to clarify that Nato enlargement was not a security threat to Russia. The then president of Russia, Boris Yeltsin, wrote in a September 1993 letter to the then US president, Bill Clinton: “Any possible integration of east European countries into Nato will not automatically lead to the alliance somehow turning against Russia.” So it was being clearly signalled that Russia did not object to the direction Europe’s new security architecture was following. The three Visegrad countries were duly invited to join Nato at the 1997 Madrid Summit, joining in 1999. Slovakia was forced to wait until 2004."
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Yeltsibn was always a western lackey. put that up against the various documents I showed linked at post 44.
I did not mean the US was a signatory to German unification treaty signed on September 12, 1990, by the Two-Plus-Four foreign ministers..should have been clearer
 
Diesel said:
I know you are. I also find your Israel obsession to be overblown, but we all have our passion projects.
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Well- your concern with Israel denotes complicity by silence.

And once again, why are you so unbalanced in your assessment of these meeting minutes? Did the US make any former Soviet satellites join NATO? Are not NATO and the US infinitely more powerful than Russia? Neither the US nor NATO have threatened Russian territory. Russia lost the Cold War and is weak. I personally see no value nor moral imperative for being mad at the US that Russia is threatening to invade Ukraine.
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It's claimed that NATO agreed not to advance eastward beyond East Germany. That seems to me to fit with Gorbachev's actions in winding down the territories of the USSR. ' Glasnost ' had a great deal of appeal to the world's peaceniks at the time, we're told- and the Russians, under Gorbachev , certainly won the high moral ground. They also saved billions upon billions in armaments spending and so ended the Cold War rather than losing it - a victory for peace and a defeat for the warmongers. You're entitled to see it differently, of course.
Still- agreements with the US aren't worth the paper they're not written on, according to the description of policy offered by member ' Flash ' earlier , so Russia still holds the high moral ground - as a defender of its territory- and the US, as usual, is the aggressor. Putin has drawn his lines- back off or it's on- and that means for everybody.
Still want to push ?
 
Diesel said:
There was no US president at this meeting of a handful of countries more than three decades ago.
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As agreements are , apparently, worthless then that is meaningless, isn't it. The point was that the word of the US is easily dismissed while that of a Russian drunkard is to be honored.


Haw, haw.......................haw.

American presidents are politicians and therefore generally not very good people, but are you seriously implying Russia is held to an unfair standard? That Russian presidents are somehow more trustworthy or honorable than American presidents?
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That depends upon your criteria for judgment. Mine is , essentially , to judge leaders by their skill in avoiding wars and not killing people. Russia isn't perfect in that area but the US is the supreme villain with Beelzebub's hot trident up its ass.
 
moon said:
Well- your concern with Israel denotes complicity by silence.



It's claimed that NATO agreed not to advance eastward beyond East Germany. That seems to me to fit with Gorbachev's actions in winding down the territories of the USSR. ' Glasnost ' had a great deal of appeal to the world's peaceniks at the time, we're told- and the Russians, under Gorbachev , certainly won the high moral ground. They also saved billions upon billions in armaments spending and so ended the Cold War rather than losing it - a victory for peace and a defeat for the warmongers. You're entitled to see it differently, of course.
Still- agreements with the US aren't worth the paper they're not written on, according to the description of policy offered by member ' Flash ' earlier , so Russia still holds the high moral ground - as a defender of its territory- and the US, as usual, is the aggressor. Putin has drawn his lines- back off or it's on- and that means for everybody.
Still want to push ?
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I hate having to agree with you..lol
Anyone that reads the various letters, statements at the post 44 has to acknowledge we promised not to expand NATO,,but then we did anyway i suppose because it was easy as member states wanted in -but no matter why -we did it

The exact legal requirements not to do so are beyond my ability to nail down
But I am 100% positive that NATO expansion up to Russia's border = NATO 'agression'

doing it provokes Russian national security responses
 
dukkha said:
I hate having to agree with you..lol
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Most Americans still find criticism of Israel distasteful- no matter what atrocities the bastards commit.

Anyone that reads the various letters, statements at the post 44 has to acknowledge we promised not to expand NATO,,but then we did anyway i suppose because it was easy as member states wanted in -but no matter why -we did it

The exact legal requirements not to do so are beyond my ability to nail down
But I am 100% positive that NATO expansion up to Russia's border = NATO 'agression'

doing it provokes Russian national security responses
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How right you are.
 
NATO did promise Moscow it wouldn't expand, former German defense official tells RT
Willy Wimmer told RT he personally witnessed the West vowing that NATO would not expand to the east

Despite their denials, Western leaders did make a promise to the USSR that NATO would not expand to Central and Eastern Europe when Moscow agreed to Germany’s reunification, Willy Wimmer, a former vice president of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), has claimed in an interview with RT on Saturday.

The veteran politician, who served as parliamentary secretary to Germany’s defense minister between 1985 and 1992, said that he personally witnessed this promise when he “sent Chancellor Helmut Kohl the statement on the Bundeswehr in NATO and NATO in Europe, which was completely incorporated into the treaties on reunification.”

Berlin’s decision at that time “not to station NATO troops on the territory of the former East Germany and to stop NATO near the Oder” was part of this promise, Wimmer added.

https://www.rt.com/russia/549961-west-nato-expand-willy-wimmer/
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Yes- more evidence of NATO infidelity.

Harris is waxing lyrical about ' a real possibility of war in Europe '. She seems to be unaware that such a war will come home to America on Day One.
 
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Phantasmal said:
The Soviet Union no longer exits.
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Good point. However, if the West was satisfied with a NATO limited by that pledge then what is the problem now with a smaller Russia? Something else one might ask is whether this is a real document or a plant?
 
moon said:
Most Americans still find criticism of Israel distasteful- no matter what atrocities the bastards commit.
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Im not happy about Gaza either, but the Palestinians needs to dump Hamas for it to improve

moon said:
How right you are.
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its really sad to watch what is a border crisis constantly being called "imminent sack of Kviy"
by Biden and the American media
 
martin said:
Good point. However, if the West was satisfied with a NATO limited by that pledge then what is the problem now with a smaller Russia? Something else one might ask is whether this is a real document or a plant?
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multiple sources on post 44
 
NATO did promise Moscow it wouldn't expand, former German defense official tells RT
Willy Wimmer told RT he personally witnessed the West vowing that NATO would not expand to the east

Despite their denials, Western leaders did make a promise to the USSR that NATO would not expand to Central and Eastern Europe when Moscow agreed to Germany’s reunification, Willy Wimmer, a former vice president of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), has claimed in an interview with RT on Saturday.

The veteran politician, who served as parliamentary secretary to Germany’s defense minister between 1985 and 1992, said that he personally witnessed this promise when he “sent Chancellor Helmut Kohl the statement on the Bundeswehr in NATO and NATO in Europe, which was completely incorporated into the treaties on reunification.”

Berlin’s decision at that time “not to station NATO troops on the territory of the former East Germany and to stop NATO near the Oder” was part of this promise, Wimmer added.
https://www.rt.com/russia/549961-west-nato-expand-willy-wimmer/
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im post op on cataract surgery ,,but how did i miss this?
 
dukkha said:
Im not happy about Gaza either, but the Palestinians needs to dump Hamas for it to improve
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No Hamas- no Palestine. Hamas won the elections by a landslide. Hamas is fighting Zionist terrorism

its really sad to watch what is a border crisis constantly being called "imminent sack of Kviy"
by Biden and the American media
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Yes.
 
martin said:
Good point. However, if the West was satisfied with a NATO limited by that pledge then what is the problem now with a smaller Russia? Something else one might ask is whether this is a real document or a plant?
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Contemporary politicians confirm it, Martin
NATO did promise Moscow it wouldn't expand, former German defense official tells RT
Willy Wimmer told RT he personally witnessed the West vowing that NATO would not expand to the east

Despite their denials, Western leaders did make a promise to the USSR that NATO would not expand to Central and Eastern Europe when Moscow agreed to Germany’s reunification, Willy Wimmer, a former vice president of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), has claimed in an interview with RT on Saturday.

The veteran politician, who served as parliamentary secretary to Germany’s defense minister between 1985 and 1992, said that he personally witnessed this promise when he “sent Chancellor Helmut Kohl the statement on the Bundeswehr in NATO and NATO in Europe, which was completely incorporated into the treaties on reunification.”

Berlin’s decision at that time “not to station NATO troops on the territory of the former East Germany and to stop NATO near the Oder” was part of this promise, Wimmer added.

https://www.rt.com/russia/549961-west-nato-expand-willy-wimmer/
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Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”

It is abundantly evident that Russian President Vladimir Putin is no fan of NATO. Indeed, he displays a pronounced—almost obsessive—antipathy toward the Alliance. He claims that NATO took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union to enlarge to its east, in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. But no such promises were made—a point now confirmed by someone who was definitely in a position to know: Mikhail Gorbachev, then president of the Soviet Union.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/
 
Cypress said:
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says “No”

It is abundantly evident that Russian President Vladimir Putin is no fan of NATO. Indeed, he displays a pronounced—almost obsessive—antipathy toward the Alliance. He claims that NATO took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union to enlarge to its east, in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. But no such promises were made—a point now confirmed by someone who was definitely in a position to know: Mikhail Gorbachev, then president of the Soviet Union.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/amp/
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superceded by actual documents -not Gorby's take on it
 
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