Does evil exist?

[Kafka]

Any belief system that requires Joseph Stalin lived to a comfortable old age, dodged any ultimate accountability, and got away scot free with a lifetime of unprecedented inhumanity and cruelty, has no standing to complain about the concept of justice in other belief systems.

Incorrect. When discussing theology one can easily (even while lacking a belief in God) critique the CONSTRUCT in the theology.

Let us say that the argument is "The All-Powerful, All-loving God loves us and cares for us" (which is a pretty standard argument) but this same God I am told loves and cares for us also commanded at least one if not many genocides, destroyed all live on the planet except for a small group, allows for horrible cancers to consume innocent children every day across the globe, etc etc.

As an atheist I can say "That doesn't sound logical or reasonable. Further, it allows me to assume that the construct the other person is calling "God" can be rejected since it makes no sense theologically.

Does that make sense?

If I am asked "Do you believe in God?" I can say "I fail to believe in God because God is either well defined and logically inconsistent or he is so undefined as to be effectively meaningless so I feel bolstered in my failure to believe in this thing."

So OF COURSE I have standing!

 

[Kafka]

separate answers to two different questions......

Actually no. You replied to my post and introduced an unrelated topic.

 

[Cypress]

I haven't said anything about justice. I just asked why the Christian God, who Christians believe performs miracles every day doesn't stop children from being raped like any decent human would.

In the Christian belief system, the rapist faces ultimate justice.

In your belief system, the rapist has a chance of getting away with it scot free, and never being held accountable.

I don't think you have any standing to complain about justice in other belief systems.

 

[Kafka]

In the Christian belief system, the rapist faces ultimate justice.

In your belief system, the rapist has a chance of getting away with it scot free, and never being held accountable.

I don't think you have any standing to complain about justice in other belief systems.

Vide supra

 

[ZenMode]

In the Christian belief system, the rapist faces ultimate justice.

In your belief system, the rapist has a chance of getting away with it scot free, and never being held accountable.

I don't think you have any standing to complain about justice in other belief systems.

Punishment in the afterlife doesn't help the terror, pain and mental trauma experienced by the child victim.

 

[Kafka]

Punishment in the afterlife doesn't help the terror, pain and mental trauma experienced by the child victim.

I think one assumes that the carcinogen that kicked off the child's cancer will be punished in the afterlife forever. Might make other carcinogens think twice.

 

[Litmus]

In the Christian belief system, the rapist faces ultimate justice.

In your belief system, the rapist has a chance of getting away with it scot free, and never being held accountable.

I don't think you have any standing to complain about justice in other belief systems.

and in Karma this holds true.

Dufus seems to equate morality with TOTALITARIANISM.

 

[Cypress]

Punishment in the afterlife doesn't help the terror, pain and mental trauma experienced by the child victim.

Thanks for the admission that rapists, murderers, and ruthless dictators may never face any accountability or ultimate justice in your worldview.

Now, please name one world religion that guarantees a transcendent authority is going to stop all crimes in progress, or even holds that out as an expectation.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks for the admission that rapists, murderers, and ruthless dictators may never face any accountability or ultimate justice in your worldview.

Now, please name one world religion that guarantees a transcendent authority is going to stop all crimes in progress, or even holds that out as an expectation.

No response, so good we have established that there are no-none-zero-zilch world religions who hold a belief, a tenet, or doctrine that a transcendent authority is going to stop all crimes in progress.

So Zen, you are inventing a religious expectation out of whole cloth, that no world religion subscribes to.

Why don't you stick to criticizing what Christians actually believe, rather than what you want them to believe or to expect

 

[Kafka]

No response, so good we have established that there are no-none-zero-zilch world religions who hold a belief, a tenet, or doctrine that a transcendent authority is going to stop all crimes in progress.

Yet this doesn't address the "problem of evil". The PoE is more about why God allows evil like childhood cancer to exist? Who gets punished for that? Why does that injustice happen as a built-in part of reality?

Why don't you stick to criticizing what Christians actually believe, rather than what you want them to believe or to expect

And Christians believe in a loving God. A loving God who is ALL-POWERFUL yet still children die from horrible cancers every day. And worse.

 

[ZenMode]

Thanks for the admission that rapists, murderers, and ruthless dictators may never face any accountability or ultimate justice in your worldview.

Now, please name one world religion that guarantees a transcendent authority is going to stop all crimes in progress, or even holds that out as an expectation.

My world view and the beliefs of other religions is irrelevant.

As I've been asking, if you saw your neighbor raping his young daughter, and you could stop it just by "thinking", would you? Again, Christians claim repeatedly that their God performs miracles every day... even saved Trump, doncha know.

So... why would he not protect the the most innocent and vulnerable?

 

[Cypress]

Yet this doesn't address the "problem of evil". The PoE is more about why God allows evil like childhood cancer to exist? Who gets punished for that? Why does that injustice happen as a built-in part of reality?


And Christians believe in a loving God. A loving God who is ALL-POWERFUL yet still children die from horrible cancers every day. And worse.

Learn something about the religion you are criticizing. The entire story of Job is about the incomprehensibility of suffering. God became human and shared in our suffering, rather than ending all suffering. The world is not supposed to be free of pain adversity, grief.

Your trying to get Christians, Jews, and Buddhists to address expectations you have as an atheist, rather than criticizing them for what they actually believe.

 

[Kafka]

Learn something about the religion you are criticizing. The entire story of Job is about the incomprehensibility of suffering. God became human and shared in our suffering, rather than ending all suffering. The world is not supposed to be free of pain adversity, grief.

I LOVE the book of Job. Right up until the last little bit. Perhaps YOU should re-read it. Remember the denouement of the entire thing is, when Job asks God about this injustice and suffering God's response is: "Who are YOU to question me??"

That's the answer. Do you find that theologically satisfying? That Job just has to suck it up.

(And this doesn't even touch the set-up in which God does this to Job as a "bet" with ha satan. That's not what a loving God would do I should think.)

Your trying to get Christians, Jews, and Buddhists to address expectations you have as an atheist, rather than criticizing them for what they actually believe.

No, I know in many cases what they believe. And I am critiquing their beliefs as presented. That's the whole point.

 

[Cypress]

I LOVE the book of Job. Right up until the last little bit. Perhaps YOU should re-read it. Remember the denouement of the entire thing is, when Job asks God about this injustice and suffering God's response is: "Who are YOU to question me??" (And this doesn't even touch the set-up in which God does this to Job as a "bet" with ha satan. That's not what a loving God would do I should think.)

That's the answer. Do you find that theologically satisfying? That Job just has to suck it up.



No, I know in many cases what they believe. And I am critiquing their beliefs as presented. That's the whole point.

I think it's more honest to admit some things about human existence are incomprehensible, rather insist our limited chimpanzee brains are entitled to be omniscient and know all the answers.

Christianity offers ultimate justice for Joseph Stalin, and redemption and salvation for children who die of cancer.

Atheists offer no ultimate justice for Stalin, and they have to look children with terminal diseases in the eye and tell them they are just going to blink completely out of existence.

Which belief system is more cynical, depressing, and nihilistic?

 

[Kafka]

I think it's more honest to admit some things about human existence are incomprehensible, rarher insist our limited chimpanzee brains are entitled to be omniscient and know all the answers.

No one expects that we do. The difference is that some of us say that simply making up what we WISH filled that ignorance isn't necessarily a valid approach.

In many cases there is simply no need for an explanation like "God".

Christianity offers ultimate justice for Joseph Stalin, and redemption and salvation for children who die of cancer.

I think you are missing the question about childhood cancer. Why does it exist? What purpose does it serve other than to expose certain innocents to pain and suffering beyond what most of us will have to endure?

I get it that in the philosophy you are defending they get it "made up for" with whatever good things exist in heaven (puppies and lollypops etc.) but it seems strange for the suffering to be needed in any real sense. If God is all-powerful then it is hard to imagine why he wouldn't stop that pain.

And hypothesizing that our "monkey brains" aren't set up to understand God's workings isn't really helpful. There is a MUCH SIMPLER, less convoluted explanation that solves all these issues and problems in one fell swoop. That God and the afterlife don't exist. That horrible things happen because horrible things happen. That life predates other life and kills and eats them. That bad people thrive and good people get hurt.

SUre it is NOT satisfying to the humans but it is what it is. It solves a lot of theological inconsistencies.

Atheists offer no ultimate justice for Stalin,

What we WISH for is NOT necessarily how reality works.

and they have to look children with terminal diseases in the eye and tell them they are just going to blink completely out of existence.

Yes. So now your defense of the God Concept is that atheists won't have a great bedside manner in the cancer ward? That's pretty weak tea.

Which belief system is more cynical, depressing, and nihilistic?

I'd say millions of children dying of aggressive and horrible cancers every single day is depressing. But I seldom think about the great gifts they'll receive in heaven after they die.

 

[Cypress]

No one expects that we do. The difference is that some of us say that simply making up what we WISH filled that ignorance isn't necessarily a valid approach.

In many cases there is simply no need for an explanation like "God".



I think you are missing the question about childhood cancer. Why does it exist? What purpose does it serve other than to expose certain innocents to pain and suffering beyond what most of us will have to endure?

I get it that in the philosophy you are defending they get it "made up for" with whatever good things exist in heaven (puppies and lollypops etc.) but it seems strange for the suffering to be needed in any real sense. If God is all-powerful then it is hard to imagine why he wouldn't stop that pain.

And hypothesizing that our "monkey brains" aren't set up to understand God's workings isn't really helpful. There is a MUCH SIMPLER, less convoluted explanation that solves all these issues and problems in one fell swoop. That God and the afterlife don't exist. That horrible things happen because horrible things happen. That life predates other life and kills and eats them. That bad people thrive and good people get hurt.

SUre it is NOT satisfying to the humans but it is what it is. It solves a lot of theological inconsistencies.




What we WISH for is NOT necessarily how reality works.



Yes. So now your defense of the God Concept is that atheists won't have a great bedside manner in the cancer ward? That's pretty weak tea.



I'd say millions of children dying of aggressive and horrible cancers every single day is depressing. But I seldom think about the great gifts they'll receive in heaven after they die.

Too much word salad.

This is too important to gloss over: as an agnostic, I can look in a dying child's eyes and tell her that most humans believe this isn't the end for her, there is another stage beyond this one.

As an atheist, you have to look a cancer ridden little girl in the eye and tell her that she is going to blink completely out of existence. Unless you choose to lie.

 

[Litmus]

Yet this doesn't address the "problem of evil". The PoE is more about why God allows evil like childhood cancer to exist? Who gets punished for that? Why does that injustice happen as a built-in part of reality?





And Christians believe in a loving God. A loving God who is ALL-POWERFUL yet still children die from horrible cancers every day. And worse.

true.

we all have agreed rape is evil.

then fucko derailed onto an enforcement issue, and vigilantism.

 

[Cypress]

I didn't bring up child rape or cancer-ridden little girls, militant atheists did that.
You all have gotten a lot of mileage and chuckles over using children to make ideological points. But you obviously never thought about having the tables turned on you.

The basic assumption of the atheist is that a full and meaningful life will be spent going to art museums, going on vacations, donating $$ to the spotted owl fund, and then peacefully passing away when you are 75 or 85.

8-year-old girls with terminal cancer do not have access to that kind of privilege and fulfillment. Your atheism requires you to look in that 8 year old girl's eyes and tell her she is just going to blink completely out of existence.

 

[Litmus]

I didn't bring up child rape or cancer-ridden little girls, militant atheists did that.
You all have gotten a lot of mileage and chuckles over using children to make ideological points. But you obviously never thought about having the tables turned on you.

The basic assumption of the atheist is that a full and meaningful life will be spent going to art museums, going on vacations, donating $$ to the spotted owl fund, and then peacefully passing away when you are 75 or 85.

8-year-old girls with terminal cancer do not have access to that kind of privilege and fulfillment. Your atheism requires you to look in that 8 year old girl's eyes and tell her she is just going to blink completely out of existence.

are you fucko?

though doth protest too much.

the smeller is the feller(ow)

 

[Kafka]

Too much word salad.

Not really, I can actually explain what I mean by my posts if you need that.

This is too important to gloss over: as an agnostic, I can look in a dying child's eyes and tell her that most humans believe this isn't the end for her, there is another stage beyond this one.

First off: I'm not going to tell a dying child what I think about the afterlife. So let's just dispense with that cannard.

But I don't think that merely WISHING INTENTLY for something that makes me feel better is sufficient evidence that that something must exist.

Sometimes it is what it is. Sometimes there isn't a prize at the end.

As an atheist, you have to look a cancer ridden little girl in the eye and tell her that she is going to blink completely out of existence. Unless you choose to lie.

I would probably lie, to be quite honest. What good would it do to tell a child that? But that isn't the debate, now is it. We aren't talking about "what would you tell a dying child", we are talking about if evil per se exists.

It doesn't matter how sad atheism makes you, it has NOTHING to do with the debate. It IS, however, an excellent dodge for someone who is unable to defend a given position. Jumping over to some hypothetical that is engineered to make the opposition look like monsters is what one does when one is unable to defend their own position.

Let's return to the actual QUESTION: Why would an all-loving God allow a creation that has built into it thousands upon thousands of innocent children dying of horrific cancers every day across the globe?