Economic Populism

[Litmus]

I know.... people want to know why the corps are leaving the US and putting their corp offices overseas... this is why.

Note to all the isolationist/protectionists.... there are many reasons the global economy is doing well. A small part is the fact that there has been a concerted effort to reduce taxes. Another is the ever increasing capitalistic influence in China. (not to say that the communist leaders will be ousted any time soon).

While global trade deals should be simplified and try to improve working conditions where needed, all this gloom and doom from the anti-NAFTA types is a bit absurd.

You're a brainwashed fascist buffoon. The international economy is a paperchase of meaningless monopoly money backed by death. A control matrix they use to sculpt the world as they see fit.

There is no evidence of change in china, the totalitarians fascists are that much stronger, and are using their money to strengthen their grip on the people, and fund our enemies covertly.

 

[uscitizen]

No evidence of change in China ? what do you call the private property ownership thing that passed recently ?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

LOL - China is one of the most protectionist trading countries on the planet. So much for your theory about NAFTA-style "free" trade driving china's economy.

Company's often move there for cheap labor, slave labor, and few if any labor protection laws. Bottom line.

Please shut the fuck up with your idiotic strawmen....

I said quite clearly.... that it was the ever increasing capitalistic influence in China that is leading their growth. I did not say they were the perfect little society. But as they have expanded their capitalistic trends and reduced their protectionist nature, their economy took off. NOTE: to avoid your inevitable subsequent strawman... I SAID REDUCE their protectionist tendencies... NOT eliminate.

Bingo... there is the slave labor comment Damo was looking for.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You're a brainwashed fascist buffoon. The international economy is a paperchase of meaningless monopoly money backed by death. A control matrix they use to sculpt the world as they see fit.

There is no evidence of change in china, the totalitarians fascists are that much stronger, and are using their money to strengthen their grip on the people, and fund our enemies covertly.

Sorry, I forgot that would set off your idiotic conspiracy radar.

 

[Litmus]

Sorry, I forgot that would set off your idiotic conspiracy radar.

You must have missed the statement by Hu Jintao that china does not plan on implementing western style freedoms. Or maybe you've missed the stories of religious oppression, slave labor, etc.

You must have missed the stories about china funding terrorism or improving their space weapons specifically for a conftrontation with us. OR about them poisoning our food supply? Get your head out of your ass.

http://www.parade.com/articles/web_exclusives/2007/02-11-2007/dictators04.html
Hu Jintao
China.
Age 64.
In power since 2002.
Last year’s rank: 6

China has become such an important part of the global economy that most countries ignore its abysmal human-rights record—even as it prepares to host next year’s Olympics. The U.S. State Department has identified 22 areas of human-rights abuses under Hu Jintao, among them torture, forced abortions, forced labor, detention of religious groups, government corruption and restrictions on speech and the media. Last year, citizens were executed for such nonviolent crimes as bribery and stealing oil.

 

[Cypress]

china maintains trade tarriffs on key industries, and china strictly regulates (and prohibits in many cases) foreign investment and foreign ownership of Chinese capital and infrastrucutre.

And they're kicking our ass in trade. Even with a "protectionist" policy. So, I don't want to hear anything about how wonderful NAFTA-style trade agreements are. That why many liberals call for bilateral trade agreements.

Its a false choice to proclaim that either you are for NAFTA-style agreements, or you are a flat out "protectionist". And you know its a false choice. Its one of Cons favorite strawmen.

 

[uscitizen]

Anyone read about China blocking meat imports from the USA ?
From the article it appears that we were shipping them meat that we would not approve for sale here....

 

[Litmus]

No evidence of change in China ? what do you call the private property ownership thing that passed recently ?

Not meaningful, absent other basic freedoms.

 

[Cypress]

Anyone read about China blocking meat imports from the USA ?
From the article it appears that we were shipping them meat that we would not approve for sale here....

They're kicking our ass and europes ass with their protectionist trade policies. Of course, through WTO, they'll promise to make changes to remove tarriffs and investment restrictions. But, it will always be cosmetic. They're not stupid: They know they can continue to kick ass with their restricted economy, while taking advantage of the more open economies of the US and Europe.

Protectionism doesnt work, my ass j/k

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

china maintains trade tarriffs on key industries, and china strictly regulates (and prohibits in many cases) foreign investment and foreign ownership of Chinese capital and infrastrucutre.

And they're kicking our ass in trade. Even with a "protectionist" policy. So, I don't want to hear anything about how wonderful NAFTA-style trade agreements are. That why many liberals call for bilateral trade agreements.

Its a false choice to proclaim that either you are for NAFTA-style agreements, or you are a flat out "protectionist". And you know its a false choice. Its one of Cons favorite strawmen.

Again, I did not say they were perfect by any means. I mentioned that they had IMPROVED as they became more open to capitalistic tendencies. They still have a long way to go.

I also said "While global trade deals should be simplified and try to improve working conditions where needed, all this gloom and doom from the anti-NAFTA types is a bit absurd."

Where in that does it say you are a flat out protectionist if you are against NAFTA type deals? I did not say any such thing. We do need to work towards true free trade. That said, NAFTA type deals are far better than protectionist policies.

But this whole "populist" movement IS more protectionist.... and it will hurt more than it will help. The problem people like you have is that you think within the borders of the country.

 

[Litmus]

Again, I did not say they were perfect by any means. I mentioned that they had IMPROVED as they became more open to capitalistic tendencies. They still have a long way to go.

I also said "While global trade deals should be simplified and try to improve working conditions where needed, all this gloom and doom from the anti-NAFTA types is a bit absurd."

Where in that does it say you are a flat out protectionist if you are against NAFTA type deals? I did not say any such thing. We do need to work towards true free trade. That said, NAFTA type deals are far better than protectionist policies.

But this whole "populist" movement IS more protectionist.... and it will hurt more than it will help. The problem people like you have is that you think within the borders of the country.

No. Economic growth is not the goal of regular people, they want to be more secure. Being put out of work because of outsourcing does not achieve this for them. Can you understand that?

 

[uscitizen]

"The problem people like you have is that you think within the borders of the country."

Yep SF, like it or not we are now edging into a world community/economy.
And a world economy could possibly help with world peace in some areas. After all if your food comes from a certain country would you want to bomb it ?
As I said it will help, not fix everything. Kinda like the old times when the royal families intermarried to keep peace.

 

[Litmus]

YEs. We think within the borders of the country. That's where we live.

 

[Annie]

It seems to me that as a country our leaders are going to have some tough decisions to make, in the very near future. A couple years ago, globalism seemed upstoppable to me. However, since there certainly seems to be a movement to return the US towards isolationism, we are going to have to shrink our areas of interests.

 

[uscitizen]

That is where we live but not where all our goods come from or are sold to.
One can play this game on any scale from and individual (Grind) to a neighborhood to city to state to country to world....
But that game will no longer play.

 

[Annie]

That is where we live but not where all our goods come from or are sold to.
One can play this game on any scale from and individual (Grind) to a neighborhood to city to state to country to world....
But that game will no longer play.

The very nature of withdrawing our national interests spheres will shrink our markets. I don't see how they cannot.

 

[Litmus]

It seems to me that as a country our leaders are going to have some tough decisions to make, in the very near future. A couple years ago, globalism seemed upstoppable to me. However, since there certainly seems to be a movement to return the US towards isolationism, we are going to have to shrink our areas of interests.

Ya losing your trade boner, are ya?

For all my rhetoric, all i really espouse is limiting entry into global trade to nations with BASIC human rights, freedoms, working conditions etc. Other wise we relegitimize the kind of totalitarianism we claim to be against. It's really just a matter of right and wrong, and do we want to watch our society degrade as it is pulled down to that level, trying to compete with that sort of slavery, and with that reduction of humanity down to the level of machine efficiency analysis?

 

[Annie]

Ya losing your trade boner, are ya?

For all my rhetoric, all i really espouse is limiting entry into global trade to nations with BASIC human rights, freedoms, working conditions etc. Other wise we relegitimize the kind of totalitarianism we claim to be against. It's really just a matter of right and wrong, and do we want to watch our society degrade as it is pulled down to that level, trying to compete with that sort of slavery, and with that reduction of humanity down to the level of machine efficiency analysis?

Bully for you.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Ya losing your trade boner, are ya?

For all my rhetoric, all i really espouse is limiting entry into global trade to nations with BASIC human rights, freedoms, working conditions etc. Other wise we relegitimize the kind of totalitarianism we claim to be against. It's really just a matter of right and wrong, and do we want to watch our society degrade as it is pulled down to that level, trying to compete with that sort of slavery, and with that reduction of humanity down to the level of machine efficiency analysis?

AHZ... I am all for the above, but we obviously disagree with how to get those countries there. Do you believe the Chinese people are better off now than they were 20 years ago?

No question China still has a long way to go, but as capitalism has expanded and their barriers begun to come down, their economy has flourished, which benefits their people. Which is why more luxury goods are being purchased there now than there was ten years ago.

I know many like to chant "slave wages" and such (and in many cases they may be correct)... but too often we are not comparing the cost of living standards at the same time. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"The problem people like you have is that you think within the borders of the country."

Yep SF, like it or not we are now edging into a world community/economy.
And a world economy could possibly help with world peace in some areas. After all if your food comes from a certain country would you want to bomb it ?
As I said it will help, not fix everything. Kinda like the old times when the royal families intermarried to keep peace.

I agree, we are already in a world economy, trying to turn back time is a bad idea and it will cause economic hardship for any country that attempts to do so.