Education in the US

Superfreak said:
I can do it in half the time.... provided the country gives me a Congress that will enact the proper plan.

I will cut our budget while maintaining current services. There will be pain that goes along with the change in the short term. But the long term health of our country will benefit greatly.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I wasn't clear, in 2 to 4 years I can have our scores competitive with the "target" countries and cut the budget in the meantime. I'm telling you it ain't difficult to see what the problems are. :) No need for more money, liberals.....use some common sense with your demands, conservatives.
 
tom prendergast said:
My oldest son who used to struggle with dyslexia, screwed up his exams as school and went to work for a couple years before going to uni. He is now on course for a first in Software Engineering, he must be a late developer.
Click to expand...
He may be. My father was that way and he went on to earn his Doctorate at a very prestigious grad school at a fairly late age.
 
tom prendergast said:
That's my job title, if you don't like it then too fucking bad. You gave up on my degree classification when you realised that you hadn't a clue what you were talking about, so now you've changed tack. Don't you ever tire of showing people how dozy you are?
Click to expand...

What are you blathering about now Tom? I didn't give up on your "degree classification". You have a BA in chemistry, which is basically worthless in a chemical field, and you working in an unrelated field proves my point.

Then you use "engineer" as your job title while you have no engineering training or expertise. Yet you lack even the basic qualifications to call yourself an "engineering technician" under the UK licensing laws.

What's it like living a lie, Tom?
 
Damn Yankee said:
What are you blathering about now Tom? I didn't give up on your "degree classification". You have a BA in chemistry, which is basically worthless in a chemical field, and you working in an unrelated field proves my point.

Then you use "engineer" as your job title while you have no engineering training or expertise. Yet you lack even the basic qualifications to call yourself an "engineering technician" under the UK licensing laws.

What's it like living a lie, Tom?
Click to expand...

God, I now know why Soc set up the Southern Man is a Fucking Moron group.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/group.php?groupid=32
 
Superfreak said:
I can do it in half the time.... provided the country gives me a Congress that will enact the proper plan.

I will cut our budget while maintaining current services. There will be pain that goes along with the change in the short term. But the long term health of our country will benefit greatly.
Click to expand...

Interesting, how do we get you in a position to do this?

Any ideas?

I would love to see someone cut the budget and provide a better system; some of the states are in dire need of a better system of education, theirs are failing badly.

The schools are good here in Alaska and our school system is facing some tough choices this year, and they are making them, but at the wrong end, once again.
 
Rana said:
Ahahaha, and which folks would that be?:cof1:
Click to expand...

Lol, Rana, folks from both sides of the political spectrum. I fear that I would make both mad at me at some point.

I don't have all of the answers but I do have some suggestions that would most definitely help, IMO. And I don't propose that all of it would be easy. I keep hearing that we aren't competitive when it comes to test performance and I can't help but agree. Statistics bear this out as well. Why don't we model some successful systems then?
Many on the liberal side of the political aisle think throwing money at the educational system will fix the problems of poor student achievement leading to low overall test scores, the standard that most seem to want to look at to see the measure of success of an educational institution or an overall system. I both agree and disagree with this line of thinking. Teacher pay in several states needs to increase...but there must be stipulations (more on this later).
Also, the educational system is top-heavy. In Oklahoma we have over 500 school districts, each with at least a Superintendent, a grade-school principal and a high school principal. The answer is not consolidation. With the vast size of many of the rural districts bussing would be a nightmare. A way of freeing up existing educational money that can be used in various ways is to eliminate the Superintendent for every school. Good principals are extremely important to the success of a school and there needs to be at least one at each school site. Some states have one Superintendent per county. In our state that would take the number of Superintendents down from 532 to 77. That is a savings of about $5.7 million. I am sure more savings can be found in similar areas such as schools that only need one principal.
Teacher pay can be increased based on a number of things. Before I go into merit pay let me suggest a few. In my state, teachers who teach in urban areas should be paid more than teachers teaching in rural areas. They encounter more students per day and, especially on the Jr. High and High School level, are more inherently at risk. I could not imagine (in fact I wouldn't be) teaching at a school where metal detectors and security guards are the norm. Also teachers in "shortage areas" (such as Science or Math) should be rewarded with a somewhat larger base salary. If they are successful they can build it up from there.
Now to the subject of merit pay (Time to make conservatives mad at me). I am not against merit pay at all. Bad teachers shouldn't be rewarded the same as good ones. But before merit pay or evaluation based on testing is implemented some fundamental changes need to be made...especially at the Jr. High and High School levels...but really to the overall system from Kindergarten forward. Here are but a couple of suggestions:

1. Eliminate social promotion. If a student cannot perform 3rd grade level work satisfactorily what makes a person think he'll be able to do it in 4th grade? Looking at problems I see this as the number one problem in the school in which I teach. Use retention in a the lower grades but if this isn't successful then re-direction is a must.

2. Do what the most successful educational systems do, use ability grouping by the 8th grade, if not before. Take it even further and utilize our Tech Schools to provide alternate education for non-college bound kids. Whether you like it or not, not all kids are going or are cut out for college. We still need plumbers, policemen, firemen and such and they don't need to know the Pythagorean Theorem.

Do this and then you can talk about merit pay. Right now in Oklahoma we are dealing with a large majority of Republicans in every elected office. Even the State Education Superintendent (why that is an elected office I don't know...that's how we got a dentist who's never been in a classroom). Already teacher evaluations are being changed to include standardized test performance...and they've been in charge for less than a month. If they try to institute merit pay without making some needed changes (and many in the know think they will) then people just think there is a shortage of Math and Science teachers now. I am not asking for more pay, just a leveler playing field.
Will the above suggestions cure every ill of Public Education? Of course not, but I think they are some valid suggestions to help along the way to making us competitive again.

Whew!! Sorry this got so long. LR to step off his soap box now.
 
leaningright said:
Lol, Rana, folks from both sides of the political spectrum. I fear that I would make both mad at me at some point.

I don't have all of the answers but I do have some suggestions that would most definitely help, IMO. And I don't propose that all of it would be easy. I keep hearing that we aren't competitive when it comes to test performance and I can't help but agree. Statistics bear this out as well. Why don't we model some successful systems then?
Many on the liberal side of the political aisle think throwing money at the educational system will fix the problems of poor student achievement leading to low overall test scores, the standard that most seem to want to look at to see the measure of success of an educational institution or an overall system. I both agree and disagree with this line of thinking. Teacher pay in several states needs to increase...but there must be stipulations (more on this later).
Also, the educational system is top-heavy. In Oklahoma we have over 500 school districts, each with at least a Superintendent, a grade-school principal and a high school principal. The answer is not consolidation. With the vast size of many of the rural districts bussing would be a nightmare. A way of freeing up existing educational money that can be used in various ways is to eliminate the Superintendent for every school. Good principals are extremely important to the success of a school and there needs to be at least one at each school site. Some states have one Superintendent per county. In our state that would take the number of Superintendents down from 532 to 77. That is a savings of about $5.7 million. I am sure more savings can be found in similar areas such as schools that only need one principal.
Teacher pay can be increased based on a number of things. Before I go into merit pay let me suggest a few. In my state, teachers who teach in urban areas should be paid more than teachers teaching in rural areas. They encounter more students per day and, especially on the Jr. High and High School level, are more inherently at risk. I could not imagine (in fact I wouldn't be) teaching at a school where metal detectors and security guards are the norm. Also teachers in "shortage areas" (such as Science or Math) should be rewarded with a somewhat larger base salary. If they are successful they can build it up from there.
Now to the subject of merit pay (Time to make conservatives mad at me). I am not against merit pay at all. Bad teachers shouldn't be rewarded the same as good ones. But before merit pay or evaluation based on testing is implemented some fundamental changes need to be made...especially at the Jr. High and High School levels...but really to the overall system from Kindergarten forward. Here are but a couple of suggestions:

1. Eliminate social promotion. If a student cannot perform 3rd grade level work satisfactorily what makes a person think he'll be able to do it in 4th grade? Looking at problems I see this as the number one problem in the school in which I teach. Use retention in a the lower grades but if this isn't successful then re-direction is a must.

2. Do what the most successful educational systems do, use ability grouping by the 8th grade, if not before. Take it even further and utilize our Tech Schools to provide alternate education for non-college bound kids. Whether you like it or not, not all kids are going or are cut out for college. We still need plumbers, policemen, firemen and such and they don't need to know the Pythagorean Theorem.

Do this and then you can talk about merit pay. Right now in Oklahoma we are dealing with a large majority of Republicans in every elected office. Even the State Education Superintendent (why that is an elected office I don't know...that's how we got a dentist who's never been in a classroom). Already teacher evaluations are being changed to include standardized test performance...and they've been in charge for less than a month. If they try to institute merit pay without making some needed changes (and many in the know think they will) then people just think there is a shortage of Math and Science teachers now. I am not asking for more pay, just a leveler playing field.
Will the above suggestions cure every ill of Public Education? Of course not, but I think they are some valid suggestions to help along the way to making us competitive again.

Whew!! Sorry this got so long. LR to step off his soap box now.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to write all of that, and I agree on a lot of points which I will respond to later, I have been asked to breakfast by Prince Charming!

later...
 
Superfreak said:
Not sure why you would think conservatives would be mad at your merit pay comments. I agree completely with them.
Click to expand...

Well, it seems the conservatives in chaarge in my state just want to slap on merit pay/evaluation and not make any other changes....that's all I was going by.
 
leaningright said:
Well, it seems the conservatives in chaarge in my state just want to slap on merit pay/evaluation and not make any other changes....that's all I was going by.
Click to expand...

That sounds more like incompetency that results from something being done for the sake of expediency rather than having the time taken to do it right.

just my opinion.
 
There are, quite probably, numerous ways in which we can make the education system more economically efficient. However, nothing significant is going to change in the performance area unless/until we address the asinine stupidity of the current educational philosophy permeating our education system.

What I am referring to is the "failure is harmful" ideology that came from some brain dead idiot back in the 60s. The system purposely passes on students who flat out do not deserve to be passed on, because it might "harm their self-esteem" (sic) if they are held back. We have poor performance in the education system because we not only allow, but REWARD poor performance. Until we address this basic fault with our education system, we can throw money at it as fast as the printing presses can run, and we'll continue to have poor performance, because the system is literally designed to give poor performance. Or, from the other end, we can restructure the education system to the leanest, meanest economic structure available to modern technology, and we STILL won't get better performance because of the prevailing attitude that it is just too mean to FAIL a student that justly deserves to fail.

Want a better education system? Get back to the basics, raise the expectations of students, demand high performance for high grades, and be willing to give failing grades to those who do not perform up to passing standards.
 
Good Luck said:
There are, quite probably, numerous ways in which we can make the education system more economically efficient. However, nothing significant is going to change in the performance area unless/until we address the asinine stupidity of the current educational philosophy permeating our education system.

What I am referring to is the "failure is harmful" ideology that came from some brain dead idiot back in the 60s. The system purposely passes on students who flat out do not deserve to be passed on, because it might "harm their self-esteem" (sic) if they are held back. We have poor performance in the education system because we not only allow, but REWARD poor performance. Until we address this basic fault with our education system, we can throw money at it as fast as the printing presses can run, and we'll continue to have poor performance, because the system is literally designed to give poor performance. Or, from the other end, we can restructure the education system to the leanest, meanest economic structure available to modern technology, and we STILL won't get better performance because of the prevailing attitude that it is just too mean to FAIL a student that justly deserves to fail.

Want a better education system? Get back to the basics, raise the expectations of students, demand high performance for high grades, and be willing to give failing grades to those who do not perform up to passing standards.
Click to expand...


The truth is that it's a race issue. You are right that we don't punish failure. We engage in social promotion. This creates what's in statistical terms a ceiling effect to hide the real learning capacity differences between the races. Maybe it is due to past injustice, maybe it is due to poverty, but dumbing down our schools till all races appear equal surely isn't the solution.
 
Here’s my view on a few points.

First, there should be aptitude tests for individuals wanting to become teachers. A person may be well educated but not a “people person”. Besides, when teaching elementary school, the lower grades, what level of formal education is really required to get the job done?

When discussing middle school the kids coming into puberty require a counselor as much as they do someone with a “science/math” education.

As kids progress through high school aptitude tests should be given and courses tailored towards their strong points.

Leaning Right, msg 128, makes the point,
Do what the most successful educational systems do, use ability grouping by the 8th grade, if not before. Take it even further and utilize our Tech Schools to provide alternate education for non-college bound kids. Whether you like it or not, not all kids are going or are cut out for college. We still need plumbers, policemen, firemen and such and they don't need to know the Pythagorean Theorem.
Click to expand...

Regarding Good Luck’s post, msg 125,
What I am referring to is the "failure is harmful" ideology that came from some brain dead idiot back in the 60s. The system purposely passes on students who flat out do not deserve to be passed on, because it might "harm their self-esteem" (sic) if they are held back.
Click to expand...

The problem is, as Leaning Right noted, not all students are bound for college so failing a student because they do not grasp a certain study diminishes their overall enthusiasm. Education has to become more specialized. As the knowledge base increases we can’t expect everyone to know everything.

It would be nice to live in a world where one could endlessly pursue education but the need to make a living gets in the way. Also, once aptitudes are determined the students should be able to observe people actually doing a job. Field trips to companies and/or representatives visiting schools to discuss the details of a certain trade or profession would give the students a clear vision of a goal.
 
apple0154 said:
The problem is, as Leaning Right noted, not all students are bound for college so failing a student because they do not grasp a certain study diminishes their overall enthusiasm. Education has to become more specialized. As the knowledge base increases we can’t expect everyone to know everything.
Click to expand...
The problem is the "Pass them so they don't get discouraged" BULLSHIT is EXACTLY why our system is failing us.

The reality is we learn as much, if not more, from mistakes and failures. But somewhere along the line of psychobabble idiocy, we have forgotten this basic truth of life. Protecting children from failure only sets them up for worse later in life because they have never learned how to deal with it. Reality is people WILL fail sometimes. learning how to deal with failure, learn from mistakes, move on and do better next time SHOULD be a NATURAL, integrated part of the entire education curriculum. If a child gets discouraged by trying and failing, that is time for a step up lesson on reality.

And while not everyone is cut out for college, the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic, history, government, etc.) are not there just to qualify someone for college. These are also essential subjects in being an informed and active participant in a constitutional republic.

Additionally, the "don't fail them" philosophy ends up not only rewarding those who cannot do the work, but those who willingly DO not do the work. It sets up an situation of zero consequence for making poor choices. It also sets up the very situation we are facing, in which we get highschool graduates who are functionally illiterate, and can't even balance a checkbook. When those students get out of school (many who drop because they never learn that bad things happen when you make stupid choices) reality smacks them down a hell of a lot harder than failing a course ever would, and they take it worse because they never had to learn how to handle the idea of not succeeding just by being alive. These are the kids who cannot hold down even the simplest of jobs because they were never taught anything other than how to get away with screwing the system. The real world does not allow success just for being alive. These are the ones who, all too often, end up strung out on drugs in their 20s - or earlier - because they were never introduced to the vagaries of reality and how to handle them.

We are so busy "protecting" their fragile self-esteems, we have forgotten that REAL self esteem comes from EARNED successes, not gifted ones. (Not to mention adding, through our own ignorant psychobabble derived actions, to the problem of families living in poverty.)
 
Superfreak said:
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuck...t-teachers-key-to-solving-us-education-crisis

great article on the state of our education system.

How many on the left that shout about how much the US spends on health care vs. other industrialized countries will do the same when it comes to education?

Clearly spending is not the issue.
Click to expand...

:lies:

the biggest problem is the lack of parental involvement and a nationwide attitude among our children that studying is for nerds and screws up the 'curve'

if we cannot teach our children that learning is not only cool, but also the gateway to better paying jobs, we will continue to fall behind other nations in the realm of education regardless of how much we spend or how good our teachers are
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top