Education in the US

usaloyal2theend said:
What's funnier yet is Tom equates his "university" days to the era when young adults were dropping acid and chanting: "flower power". Timothy Leary would have adored being his mate.

'splains a lot. :palm:
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What's funny is his pompous ass trying to "win" an argument by claiming that I am intellectually inferior, and when called on it, it turns out he has a BA in chemistry, which is basically worthless in the real world, and inferior to a BS in chemistry, which in turn is inferior to a BS in engineering. Then, when he loses that argument, insults me again with a drug reference.

Yeah, I went to an ag and tech school and we had plain concrete walls, not brick covered in ivy, and I drank PBR not Bass Ale, and I wore a cotton sweatshirt and white athletic socks not an argyle sweater and socks, and I ate spaghetti from a pot most nights not fish and chips at the pub, and drove a bus on campus to make money instead of playing squash, and I owned a rusted up old Ford instead of a new Jaguar, but I made Dean's list and graduated cum laude and got a good job that my daddy didn't have to pull strings for, paid off my school loans so I could go to grad school, took care of all sorts of environmental problems and built infrastructure to help out society.

Come on Tom, tell us what you did with your art degree in chemistry. :)
 
Damn Yankee said:
What's really funny is that you think a BA in chemistry is superior to a BS in chemistry because the BA comes from a university with ivy growing on the walls.

Or you can't admit that it isn't, which is more likely since you failed to answer my question. So again, Tom, did you use your BA degree to go on to an advanced degree, or are you working in a field where a science degree isn't required?
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What's really funny is that you think it makes much of a difference. It doesn't if you're going to graduate school. In your field, ya...you'd have to be simple to get a BA.
 
Damocles said:
Right. We agree, this "barely scraping the surface" analysis is beyond silly. "Pay more" isn't the answer it is what we have done in the past and it hasn't improved crap. We keep on saying the same thing is the solution, we keep doing it, we keep getting the same result. At some point we must either say we are the stupidest people on the planet or we should change the approach.

Other nations are spending less per capita publicly for better results, we need to see what they are doing. If it causes some administrators to lose their jobs so we can pay teachers more then so be it. However, just "pay more" isn't the answer, it hasn't been the answer, and it isn't going to be the answer.

And yes, AssHat, stop providing "free" education for those who are here illegally and we'll likely save some money and get better results.
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Well again were back to what I was saying in which case you're both partly right. Yes we do need to pay more to attract better talent but that's only half the solution, the other half is greater expectations for performance and accountability for that performance for those higher wages.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
There's two schools of thought for that. The BS has a more demanding technical curriculum and the BA has the more well rounded program. In my case my BA in Human Biology was more difficult then the BS as, at my school, I not only took all the required science programs of the BS but took extra course work in liberal arts studies. That hurt me neither in getting into graduate school (I was excepted before I even completed my degree) nor finding a job.....though I must admit my Masters is a Masters of Science degree but I obtained that after I entered my current field of work. I took my undergraduate degree as a BA not because it was easier. It wasn't, wasn't particularly harder either, I just had to take more classes then for the BS but I took the BA on the advise of my academic counselor. Yes, some companies may want to know if you took the tougher classes but many other companies prefer the more rounded BA as more well rounded people tend to be better leaders.

As for Chemistry....it's not Engineering Bubba. It's harder to earn a BA in Chemistry then a BS because you have take a year or two of foreign languages. How good is your German? A BA in chemistry is definitely more difficult to earn then the BS because of the foreign language requirements. I know quite a few Chem majors who dropped their BA to BS cause they were doing poorly in their German language classes.
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I'll do you one better- I had an engineering job working for a consultant, the assignment was on the college campus, and it started two weeks before my last final exam. They set me up in a good hotel, paid my per diem, and had me working 10 hour shifts 7 days/ week.

An engineering curriculum simply doesn't have time for a foreign language. My program required 137 credits to graduate; that's 17 more - an additional heavy semester - than some pompous ass BA curriculum. Besides, if I had to learn German I could pick up a copy of Rosetta Stone and do it in my spare time.
 
Superfreak said:
I honestly think we are all in agreement, just arguing from different views.

Does anyone disagree with any of these...

1) We need to pay teachers based on their ability, hence, if we want top quality, we need to recruit the best universities have to offer and pay them similar to what they would earn in the private sector.

2) We need to cut the waste in the administrative side of the department of education

3) We need to end the pay based on seniority system

4) We need to be more selective with tenure
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Yea I would agree with those four points as the basis for fundamental reform though you have to be careful with #4 or you'll end up with the Dixie's of the world deciding who gets to teach. Hell if it wasn't for the vast number of meat heads like Dixie out there in the world I'd be for getting rid of tenure all together.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
What's really funny is that you think it makes much of a difference. It doesn't if you're going to graduate school. In your field, ya...you'd have to be simple to get a BA.
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That's my point dood. Pendergast didn't, and he claims he edumaction is superior to mine.

spelling errors as bait for the limey.
 
Damn Yankee said:
What's funny is his pompous ass trying to "win" an argument by claiming that I am intellectually inferior, and when called on it, it turns out he has a BA in chemistry, which is basically worthless in the real world, and inferior to a BS in chemistry, which in turn is inferior to a BS in engineering. Then, when he loses that argument, insults me again with a drug reference.

Yeah, I went to an ag and tech school and we had plain concrete walls, not brick covered in ivy, and I drank PBR not Bass Ale, and I wore a cotton sweatshirt and white athletic socks not an argyle sweater and socks, and I ate spaghetti from a pot most nights not fish and chips at the pub, and drove a bus on campus to make money instead of playing squash, and I owned a rusted up old Ford instead of a new Jaguar, but I made Dean's list and graduated cum laude and got a good job that my daddy didn't have to pull strings for, paid off my school loans so I could go to grad school, took care of all sorts of environmental problems and built infrastructure to help out society.

Come on Tom, tell us what you did with your art degree in chemistry. :)
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Why don't you ask your best buddy from No Cal, she knows.
 
Damn Yankee said:
I'll do you one better- I had an engineering job working for a consultant, the assignment was on the college campus, and it started two weeks before my last final exam. They set me up in a good hotel, paid my per diem, and had me working 10 hour shifts 7 days/ week.

An engineering curriculum simply doesn't have time for a foreign language. My program required 137 credits to graduate; that's 17 more - an additional heavy semester - than some pompous ass BA curriculum. Besides, if I had to learn German I could pick up a copy of Rosetta Stone and do it in my spare time.
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I'm not trying to compare Chemistry to Engineering as majors Bubba. I'm pointing out to to you that different majors have different requirements. In chemistry a vast amount of the basic and applied research is done outside of English speaking nations and if you intend to stay current then the ability to be literate in other languages (particularly German) is critical. Due to that a lot of universities don't even offer a BS in chemistry as a BA in Chemistry is more to be desired.

Though to be honest with you, I wouldn't recommend chemistry as a major to anyone in the US unless you're seriously intent on going to graduate school as the job base and salaries for chemist is shrinking with our shrinking industrial base and that's where most of the high paying jobs for chemist are. It's one of the most difficult science majors but it's pretty tough to find a high paying job with just a BS/BA or even a graduate degree. Right now if you have to ability to be a chemistry major you're probably better off studying materials science or going into a medical technology field. More jobs and they pay a lot better.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not trying to compare Chemistry to Engineering as majors Bubba. I'm pointing out to to you that different majors have different requirements. In chemistry a vast amount of the basic and applied research is done outside of English speaking nations and if you intend to stay current then the ability to be literate in other languages (particularly German) is critical. Due to that a lot of universities don't even offer a BS in chemistry as a BA in Chemistry is more to be desired.

Though to be honest with you, I wouldn't recommend chemistry as a major to anyone in the US unless you're seriously intent on going to graduate school as the job base and salaries for chemist is shrinking with our shrinking industrial base and that's where most of the high paying jobs for chemist are. It's one of the most difficult science majors but it's pretty tough to find a high paying job with just a BS/BA or even a graduate degree. Right now if you have to ability to be a chemistry major you're probably better off studying materials science or going into a medical technology field. More jobs and they pay a lot better.
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I haven't worked in the chemical industry for over thirty years.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not trying to compare Chemistry to Engineering as majors Bubba. I'm pointing out to to you that different majors have different requirements. In chemistry a vast amount of the basic and applied research is done outside of English speaking nations and if you intend to stay current then the ability to be literate in other languages (particularly German) is critical. Due to that a lot of universities don't even offer a BS in chemistry as a BA in Chemistry is more to be desired.

Though to be honest with you, I wouldn't recommend chemistry as a major to anyone in the US unless you're seriously intent on going to graduate school as the job base and salaries for chemist is shrinking with our shrinking industrial base and that's where most of the high paying jobs for chemist are. It's one of the most difficult science majors but it's pretty tough to find a high paying job with just a BS/BA or even a graduate degree. Right now if you have to ability to be a chemistry major you're probably better off studying materials science or going into a medical technology field. More jobs and they pay a lot better.
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You're better off being a chemical engineer, a curriculum that Tom would have failed at. :)
 
tom prendergast said:
I haven't worked in the chemical industry for over thirty years.
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That's because you couldn't get a job:

Damn Yankee said:
A Bachelor of Arts degree goes to somebody who gets a bachelor degree in any non-technical, or science related field. A Bachelor of Science degree goes to somebody who does get a degree in a science related field. The designations are set up by the colleges themselves.

So, what's the difference? Does it really matter?

The answer to that question may shock you. It matters very much.

The reasons will not be immediately apparent to the student, but when he or she goes into the real world to get a job, they are going to be in for a rude awakening if they're looking for a specific type of job and don't have a bachelor of science degree.

...

It may seem like a nit picky thing, but these companies want to know that you can get through the tougher curriculum.
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Mott the Hoople said:
Yea I would agree with those four points as the basis for fundamental reform though you have to be careful with #4 or you'll end up with the Dixie's of the world deciding who gets to teach. Hell if it wasn't for the vast number of meat heads like Dixie out there in the world I'd be for getting rid of tenure all together.
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True... I was way too vague on number 4. I personally think tenure after ten years is fair, provided the 'tenure' makes it really hard, but not impossible to fire a teacher should performance decline after tenure is granted.

That said, I think most people are on the same page with reform, but the animosity from both sides has risen to the point that everyone just assumes everyone else is 'stark raving mad' and thus begins arguing just for the sake of arguing. (I throw my former self into that camp as well.... just trying to turn a new page)
 
tom prendergast said:
The only reason that Lancaster gave BAs rather than BScs was that it was copying the Oxbridge system. I don't know if that's still the case, I will have to ask my youngest son as he will probably be going there this year, You are right though, we did have to do German as well but we were allowed dictionaries in the exam. As for the technical content, the syllabus was exactly the same as any other BSc course at any other uni.
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That was the case with my BA. I took all the exact same classes as those who earned BS degrees in my major plus I took 20 extra hours in liberal arts classes. I can't say it was harder then earning the BS it's just that I took 20 credits hours more liberal arts classes and my academic advisor told me I would be better off applying for a BA then a BS since I had done the extra work anyways. So I did.
 
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