Liberty
Libertarian Minded
I don't think you realize just how much they are hurting small business in America, and how many Americans hate them. The numbers have been growing for many years, and people are ready to give them the ax.
APP - EPA tells states to consider rising ocean acidity
- Thread starter Schadenfreude
- Start date
I don't think you realize just how much they are hurting small business in America, and how many Americans hate them. The numbers have been growing for many years, and people are ready to give them the ax.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
No... this isn't a problem that needs management, especially by the government. Carbon dioxide is a natural element found in our environment, it is not a pollutant. Not only is it non-harmful to human life, it is fundamentally beneficial to all plant life. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere might cause plants to grow in the desert, it might cause crops to yield more food to feed the hungry, but one thing it isn't going to do, is cause extinction of mankind, or catastrophic climate change, or changes in the habitability of the oceans. The "solution" to the problem of too much CO2 in the atmosphere, Mr. Science, is to plant more f**king trees! It's really simple! --no government needed!
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Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
little guys can do some serious pollution before they are caught, but it takes the big guys to really pollute
i am all in favor of criminalizing polluters, but who do you put in jail?
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
too much carbonic acid in seawater will kill off micro organisms that most sea life depend on
trees are not enough and too slow
ps take your f***ing type language back to the other boards - you are an embarrassment to yourself and others
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
As I said before, which you seem to have ignored.... When the planet was full of primordial soup, and all of this magnificent life around us was evolving into existence, the atmosphere was much richer in carbon dioxide. So, since CO2 doesn't change, if it didn't cause the killing off of micro-organisms back then, it is impossible it could do so now. How do you rectify that fact? In the early infancy of life, CO2 was much more prevalent, the ice cores and sediment layers prove this, it is indisputable. Yet, you are trying to argue that relatively smaller incremental increases in CO2 are going to cause calamity and chaos, render the oceans uninhabitable... this would defy all logic, unless every theory of how life evolved on the planet is wrong.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
fool, it is not the quantity, but the rate of change and the instantaneous rate of change is positive
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
So the rate of change in atmospheric CO2 is causing carbonic acid? Do you have any physics or chemistry evidence to support that supposition? Your initial post says; Water + CO2 = carbonic acid. It doesn't indicate anything regarding the rate of change. To my knowledge, rapid rate of change doesn't create ANY chemical change.
Oh by the way, the CO2 levels 100 years ago, were roughly 280 ppm, and are currently 360 ppm. That doesn't seem too "rapid" to me, regardless of your unfounded theory. Botanical scientists say that most plant life on Earth, evolved in a much richer concentration of CO2, like 800-1500ppm or so, and until recently, plants were actually 'starving' for it.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
i will leave it to you to find a previous post on this subject that detailed the increase - the post exists - i say when i was a guest so it was a while ago - likely months...
Liberty
Libertarian Minded
Well,,, the legislature should make the laws, and enforce them. I don't think you should focus on putting people in jail as much as fining them, and making them clean up the mess. That's the most important thing.
The EPA is a waste of time and money and has put a lot of small businesses out of business through out the years.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
i will leave it to you to find a previous post on this subject that detailed the increase - the post exists - i say when i was a guest so it was a while ago - likely months...
Well it's not my job to prove your points in the debate. You are now claiming something that physics simply doesn't support. Rapidly increasing CO2 level, doesn't cause water to turn to carbonic acid. Even if it did, an increase of 80ppm in a century, is not "rapid" by any stretch. That's less than 1 per million parts per year! That's a very SLOW rate of increase.
You've still not addressed my point. When all the life we know of on Earth was forming, the concentration of atmospheric CO2 was considerably higher. Now it's obvious, this didn't hinder the progression of evolution, because we are here! Micro-organisms in the ocean weren't killed, they evolved into more complex life forms and eventually crawled onto land! Why are you avoiding this fact of biology and theory of evolution? Do you disbelieve the theory of evolution? To believe what you are claiming, you almost have to refute evolution theory, because it wouldn't have been possible.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Don't get sucked in to the false debate that carbon dioxide is "pollution!" It's simply NOT pollution, it's a natural element found prevalently in our universe. In fact, carbon itself, is the basis for all life as we know it. Now... sulfur dioxides, formaldehyde, mercury, lead, arsenic, radioactive waste... those are pollutants, and I'm all in favor of enforcing strict regulations on industries who create them, and making them clean up their mess.
This has become the 'go-to' argument for the Warmers, they rail on and on about CO2, then cleverly switch the debate to 'pollution' as if we can lump a natural element in with all the rest, and generate an emotive response! Many-a-dumb ass just accepts this at face value and nods in agreement. It's a dishonest tactic at best.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
you apparently did not notice that the instantaneous rate of change is positive
when the average rate of change reaches a certain point the relevant micro organisms can no longer evolve fast enough and begin to die
as the rate of change CO2 in the atmosphere increases so does the rate of change of carbonic acid in the ocean
in other words, you can only push an ecosystem so far and so fast before it collapses
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
nothing deters like the threat of actual imprisonment - some CEOs treat fines as just a cost of doing business
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
You're babbling more nonsense. There is no "instantaneous" rate of change! The CO2 levels in the atmosphere have risen roughly 80 parts per million in the course of a century.... that is NOT INSTANTANEOUS!
You've not presented ANY evidence to support your supposition! Rate of change doesn't effect chemical transformation! CO2 is not higher now, nor is the "rate of change" higher, than it was 100,000 years ago! If it didn't cause uninhabitable oceans then, it can't cause them now! What part of that are you failing to understand?
Look.... I know some propagandist has filled your head full of "science" you basically don't understand, but the facts I am presenting are pretty straight forward and indisputable. The atmosphere once had a much higher concentration of CO2, and ocean life thrived just fine in it! In fact, all the life you see around us, came from that very ocean... high CO2 concentrations and all! The ecosystem of the Earth is amazingly resilient, and not nearly as 'fragile' as you seem to believe. There have been periods of volcanic activity, where the planet was totally blanketed by debris, blocking the sun and causing temperatures to drop to record lows for long extended periods, all over the planet, and life still prevailed, the Earth still recovered. Solar activity has caused similar long periods of extended warming, and life still prevailed, the Earth recovered. Even dumping billions of gallons of crude oil into the ocean, the ocean is able to clean itself over time and mitigate the damage. I just think you totally underestimate the power of Mother Nature, and the miraculousness of our planet.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
since you obviously have not studied calculus or physics i will change the description -
average rate of change is velocity - the speed at which change is occurring
instantaneous rate of change is acceleration - how fast you are changing your velocity
from the previously posted article that i referred to, the change in carbonic acid content in the oceans is accelerating - if this keeps on, the change in carbonic acid will reach a velocity that some micro organisms cannot adapt or evolve to
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
This is absolute bullshit, and anyone who has ever studied physics or chemistry know it! There is no such thing as "instantaneous rate of change!" That is what is known as an oxymoron!
in·stan·ta·ne·ous
–adjective
1. occurring, done, or completed in an instant: an instantaneous response.
There is no "rate of change" if something happens instantly!
Now, with regard to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, it has risen from 234 ppm in 1832 to 387 ppm in 2009. During the time of the Oligocene extinction event, the CO2 level was about 760 ppm. Here's a graph showing CO2 levels even further back, over the past 500 million years:
As you can see, we previously had a much richer concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere, something like 6000 times greater! YET... Life somehow managed to evolve from the oceans! It's a miracle!
The Earth's oceans contain a huge amount of carbon dioxide in the form of bicarbonate and carbonate ions — much more than the amount in the atmosphere. The bicarbonate is produced in reactions between rock, water, and carbon dioxide. One example is the dissolution of calcium carbonate:
CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O ⇌ Ca2+ + 2 HCO3-
Reactions like this tend to buffer changes in atmospheric CO2. Reactions between carbon dioxide and non-carbonate rocks also add bicarbonate to the seas. This can later undergo the reverse of the above reaction to form carbonate rocks, releasing half of the bicarbonate as CO2. Over hundreds of millions of years this has produced huge quantities of carbonate rocks. Ultimately, most of the CO2 emitted by human activities will dissolve in the ocean.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
This is absolute bullshit, and anyone who has ever studied physics or chemistry know it! There is no such thing as "instantaneous rate of change!" That is what is known as an oxymoron!
in·stan·ta·ne·ous
–adjective
1. occurring, done, or completed in an instant: an instantaneous response.
There is no "rate of change" if something happens instantly!
Now, with regard to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, it has risen from 234 ppm in 1832 to 387 ppm in 2009. During the time of the Oligocene extinction event, the CO2 level was about 760 ppm. Here's a graph showing CO2 levels even further back, over the past 500 million years:
As you can see, we previously had a much richer concentration of CO2 in our atmosphere, something like 6000 times greater! YET... Life somehow managed to evolve from the oceans! It's a miracle!
The Earth's oceans contain a huge amount of carbon dioxide in the form of bicarbonate and carbonate ions — much more than the amount in the atmosphere. The bicarbonate is produced in reactions between rock, water, and carbon dioxide. One example is the dissolution of calcium carbonate:
CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O ⇌ Ca2+ + 2 HCO3- the equation should be -- CaCO3 + CO2 + 2H2O <=> Ca + 2H2CO3 (this does not show ions)
Reactions like this tend to buffer changes in atmospheric CO2. Reactions between carbon dioxide and non-carbonate rocks also add bicarbonate to the seas. This can later undergo the reverse of the above reaction to form carbonate rocks, releasing half of the bicarbonate as CO2. Over hundreds of millions of years this has produced huge quantities of carbonate rocks. Ultimately, most of the CO2 emitted by human activities will dissolve in the ocean.
ok, one more time
something moving or changing with a relationship to time (this is from calculus), a primary equation describes change, the first derivative (please see definition below) of the equation describes the average rate of change (velocity) and the second derivative of the equation describes the instantaneous rate of change (acceleration)
the problem is that the second derivative is positive with relationship to the primary equation for the increase of H2CO3 in seawater
i took calculus and chemistry (although is has been a few decades)
in the equation that you cited (which is true within a limited context), if there is not enough carbonate (CaCO3), the amount of H2CO3 increases and a new equilibrium is achieved - for your equation to be fully correct there has to be enough available CaCO3 for the H2CO3 to unite with
while there is CaCO3 in coral and related organisms, the H2CO3 is added to the oceans by rain and some runoff, therefore there must be enough CaCO3 near the surface to maintain the equilibrium - most of the CaCO3 is found at lower levels - the effected micro organisms live near the surface
also, please see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid#Role_of_carbonic_acid_in_ocean_chemistry
derivative
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American Heritage Dictionary (9 definitions)
–adjective
- Resulting from or employing derivation: a derivative word; a derivative process.
- Copied or adapted from others: a highly derivative prose style. –noun
- Something derived.
- Linguistics A word formed from another by derivation, such as electricity from electric.
- Mathematics The limiting value of the ratio of the change in a function to the corresponding change in its independent variable.
- Mathematics The instantaneous rate of change of a function with respect to its variable.
- Mathematics The slope of the tangent line to the graph of a function at a given point. Also called differential coefficient, fluxion.
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Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Wow, you sound so smart to be such a dumb guy!
FACT: CO2 levels in Earth's atmosphere, were thousands of times greater during the period where all live evolved and came into existence. If this increased CO2 in our atmosphere, caused oceans to be acidic and uninhabitable, the processes of evolution would not have occurred, and could not have occurred, as it would have been impossible, if micro-organisms couldn't live in our oceans.
Now we can go around and around about chemistry, calculus, physics, biology, botany... this simple fact exists, and it's hard to get around. You can't explain how the massive quantities of CO2 on early Earth, didn't render the ocean uninhabitable, but suddenly now, a modest rise in CO2 levels in our atmosphere, is going to cause chaos. It does not comport with reason or logic. If that did not happen then (and it obviously didn't) it can't happen now!
Natural sources of CO2 in our atmosphere, are 20 times greater than what man contributes.... another factoid the Warmers conveniently fail to tell you.
FACT: CO2 levels in Earth's atmosphere, were thousands of times greater during the period where all live evolved and came into existence. If this increased CO2 in our atmosphere, caused oceans to be acidic and uninhabitable, the processes of evolution would not have occurred, and could not have occurred, as it would have been impossible, if micro-organisms couldn't live in our oceans.
Now we can go around and around about chemistry, calculus, physics, biology, botany... this simple fact exists, and it's hard to get around. You can't explain how the massive quantities of CO2 on early Earth, didn't render the ocean uninhabitable, but suddenly now, a modest rise in CO2 levels in our atmosphere, is going to cause chaos. It does not comport with reason or logic. If that did not happen then (and it obviously didn't) it can't happen now!
Natural sources of CO2 in our atmosphere, are 20 times greater than what man contributes.... another factoid the Warmers conveniently fail to tell you.
Schadenfreude
patriot and widower
in a word - evolution
did you read the article from wiki?
ps it is not the amount of CO2 in the air, as how quickly that amount changes
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