Eric Holder: Suspending Miranda is now OKAY?

Captain, you're not going to convince me in a million years. My hands are better on the left front, trying to build the standing of the non-authoritarian left, just like you're trying to build the standing of the non-authoritarian right.
 
lets get real specific. I did NOT say 'income tax', I said 'tax'. and if you are that daft to not understand that the raid on waco was initially about NOT paying taxes on weapons, then this debate is moot.

Then I'll restate my question to you:

See, this is where you totally fuck up.

A while back you complained about something and I said you were going to the extreme end, to make your point, and you disagreed.

Time for you to PUT UP or SHUT UP, by providing any fucking documentation that shows Reno ordering 86 people executed for not paying tax.
By the way, I think Reno is an idiot.
 
There is a huge difference between POWs and people arrested in the U.S. by law enforcement. No, if a U.S. soldier captures a combatant, or even if a soldier captures a foreign national in a combat zone as a suspected combatant, then miranda rules do not apply. That is pretty much a given, and your Civil War example is exactly that" combatants under military conditions.

But the AG is talking about NOT paying attention to our rights when a person is ARRESTED by LAW ENFORCEMENT. No military involved, yet if they label you a terrorist, out go the rights. That is wrong, no matter what dough headed fuck up says it's OK.

The 14th Amendment SPECIFICALLY STATES that the rights of a U.S. person - that means ANY PERSON residing in the United States - cannot have their rights removed EXCEPT THROUGH DUE PROCESS.


To declare a person a terrorist to whom Constitutional protections do not apply, the person has to either be captured under military conditions (ie: captured by military personnel as an enemy combatant or suspected enemy combatant in a military combat zone) OR, if arrested by law enforcement in the United States proper or associated territories, due process must be applied. But for due process to apply, the legal system has to arrest you, MIRANDIZE YOU because your rights are still intact until the due process procedure is over,, put you on trial, CONVICT YOU and SENTENCE YOU, with part of said sentence being the removal of your rights. Then and ONLY then can they DENY your rights and proceed to treat you as an enemy agent.

Anything less is pissing on the Constitution. It does not MATTER what "justification" you want to use. You piss on the Constitution, you will get urinated on yourself, eventually, as the "exceptions" are granted ever widened definitions. If the AG's policy is allowed to stand, all they have to do to remove ALL your Constitutional protections is declare you a suspected terrorist. They do not even have a defined policy for what it takes to SUSPECT a terrorist. Just say so, and you're a terrorist with no Constitution. Then they do whatever the fuck they want, and, if you're EXTREMELY LUCKY in the end, get released many years later with a "oops, guess you're not a terrorist after all".

Not one single individual (including KSM) held at Gitmo, was arrested by law enforcement on US soil. These people were not Mirandized or given rights under the Constitution, despite being in US custody at Gitmo. The Bush administration listed them (accurately) as enemy combatants, and the Liberals have held an 8-year campaign to have the re-classified as prisoners and afford them the rights to a fair and speedy trial in US court, not military tribunals, as we normally prosecute enemy combatants.

The Patriot Act, much like the Arizona Illegal Immigration Law, is misunderstood because people haven't read it, they assume what others say is true, and that's where they have formed their opinions. In order for a United States citizen to be wiretapped without a warrant, this has to be specifically ordered by the executive branch, for rare and extenuating circumstances... much like Holder's exception for Miranda, it is a vital matter of national security, or what is called the "ticking time-bomb scenario", when traditional methods of judicial warranting, could potentially mean thousands of innocent lives lost to a terror attack. The left will have you believe (and many do) that any administration can just listen in on your phone calls at any given time, just because they want to! That is bullshit, and always has been. Any warrantless wiretap situation, still has to be reported through FISA at the earliest possible opportunity, and there is still considerable oversight through this process. The Patriot Act merely allows the principals to act expediently, to prevent a potential terror attack.

From a Constitutional standpoint, our Congress needs to pass an official Declaration of War on Radical Islamic Terrorism. That is the piece that is missing here, which makes you uncomfortable with what is being done. The problem is, our government (even Bush) was afraid to do that! Eric Holder couldn't even bring himself to admit the TS bomber was a radical islamic extremist, under intense questioning about that specific aspect. We're scared as fuck to say who we are at war with!
 
Dixie, I'd like you to point me to where "radical Islamic terrorism" is located on the map. Thankyou.

Well, that's part of the problem, they are spread all over the map, including here in our own country. The other part of the problem is morons like yourself, who can't seem to discern between "radical islamic terrorist" and a person of Muslim faith. You presume all of them are the same thing, and such a war would be viewed as a war on Muslims. That's precisely why the Attorney General can't manage to make those three words come out of his mouth together!
 
Koresh was involved in child rape. The final assault was a tragedy (a tragedy caused by the Davidians lighting fires on their on facility) but the issue is far more complex than simply not paying taxes.

bullshit. pure unadulterated bullshit. the raid by ATF was initiated because of a stockpile of automatic weapons that the ATF had no tax records on. end of story. the child rape is being used a means to justify the end.
 
Then I'll restate my question to you:

See, this is where you totally fuck up.

A while back you complained about something and I said you were going to the extreme end, to make your point, and you disagreed.

Time for you to PUT UP or SHUT UP, by providing any fucking documentation that shows Reno ordering 86 people executed for not paying tax.
By the way, I think Reno is an idiot.

did the FBI use modified tanks to break in to and spray the inside of the compound? Reno suggested the raid because of the cost of waiting them out. she knew what the risks were going to be and took her chance anyway. she basically ordered them to die.
 
did the FBI use modified tanks to break in to and spray the inside of the compound? Reno suggested the raid because of the cost of waiting them out. she knew what the risks were going to be and took her chance anyway. she basically ordered them to die.

OH-Now you want to justify your accusations by including the word "basically"!! :good4u:

As of this moment, you have no right to bitch about anyone else's "extreme generalization"; because you're using the same method they are, just to try to make your point look sancified.

But then I also know you will continue; because you are no better then they are.

Congratulations; you have met the enemy and he is you. :good4u:
 
OH-Now you want to justify your accusations by including the word "basically"!! :good4u:

As of this moment, you have no right to bitch about anyone else's "extreme generalization"; because you're using the same method they are, just to try to make your point look sancified.

But then I also know you will continue; because you are no better then they are.

Congratulations; you have met the enemy and he is you. :good4u:

um, hell no. you're just the flip side of a liberal. you want to make the constitution a living document also, only to implement your own ridiculous law and order agenda. as of this moment, your opinions are worthless as a 'conservative'.
 
The Ashes of Waco

[T]here is the post hoc justification for the use of CS tear-gas in the raid offered by the US Justice Department and senior Clinton administration officials. The public generally, and even the Congressional hearings, seem to have accepted that the children at Waco were gassed and then died as, in effect, “collateral damage” in the course of a raid aimed at their parents.

This is not quite the case, however, by the Clinton administration’s own admissions. CS gas was used at the compound, in order, as senior White House adviser George Stephanopoulos said, echoing senior Justice Department statements, to “try and pressure” those in the compound. It was hoped, he said, that as this “pressure was increased, the maternal instincts of the mothers might take over and they might try to leave with their kids” (Washington Times, April 23, 1995).

But the FBI knew beforehand that adults in the compound had gas masks; the gas therefore would not put pressure on them. On whom, then? If the FBI knew that the adults had gas masks, but went ahead with the gas attack anyway, it is plain that this “pressure” was brought directly against the children because, as the FBI knew, they could not fit into adult– size gas masks. “Maternal feelings”, the FBI hoped, would be unleashed in the mothers by watching their children choking, gasping and blistering from the gas.

The plan Reno approved and took to President Clinton for approval contemplated the children choking in the gas unprotected for forty-eight hours if necessary, to produce the requisite “maternal feelings”. By taking aim at the children with potentially lethal gas, their mothers would be compelled, according to the FBI plan repeatedly defended by the Clinton administration afterwards as “rational” planning, to flee with them into the arms of those trying to gas them. [Emphasis added.]

An independent report on Waco written by the Harvard Professor of Law and Psychiatry, Alan A. Stone, for the then Deputy Attorney General Philip Heymann, says it “is difficult to believe that the US government would deliberately plan to expose twenty-five children, most of them infants and toddlers, to CS gas for forty-eight hours”. Unfortunately, however, that appears to have been exactly the plan.

The effect of CS gas on an unprotected infant exposed for only two to three hours is discussed in the report; in that case report, dating from the early 1970s, the child’s symptoms during the first twenty-four hours were upper respiratory; but, within forty-eight hours his face showed evidence of first degree burns, and he was in severe respiratory distress typical of chemical pneumonia. The infant had cyanosis, required urgent positive pressure pulmonary care, and was hospitalized for twenty– eight days. Other signs of toxicity appeared, including an enlarged liver.

Professor Stone’s report is measured, careful and damning. It is hard to know whether Heymann’s courage in commissioning it was a reason for his subsequent departure from the Justice Department. In the mean time, questions about the performance of the Justice Department are treated by the Clinton administration not as serious allegations of criminal activity, but as little more than a below-the-belt salvo in the culture wars.

I was shocked to read in Stone’s report that the Justice Department had undertaken, and had defended in the press as such, activities which if conducted in wartime would constitute war crimes. Because exposing the children to CS gas was the point of the FBI exercise: no children exposed, no pressure.
 
um, hell no. you're just the flip side of a liberal. you want to make the constitution a living document also, only to implement your own ridiculous law and order agenda. as of this moment, your opinions are worthless as a 'conservative'.

What the fuck are you talking about??

Show me one statement from me, that supports your baseless accusation. :good4u:
 
Not one single individual (including KSM) held at Gitmo, was arrested by law enforcement on US soil. These people were not Mirandized or given rights under the Constitution, despite being in US custody at Gitmo. The Bush administration listed them (accurately) as enemy combatants, and the Liberals have held an 8-year campaign to have the re-classified as prisoners and afford them the rights to a fair and speedy trial in US court, not military tribunals, as we normally prosecute enemy combatants.
From your own link:
The Obama administration said Sunday it would seek a law allowing investigators to interrogate terrorism suspects without informing them of their rights, as Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. flatly asserted that the defendant in the Times Square bombing attempt was trained by the Taliban in Pakistan.
Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square bomber suspect, was arrested at JFK Airport. by the POLICE. Catch up with current events, pal. We are not talking enemy combatants, suspected enemy combbatants detained or captured by our military. They aren't satisfied with the enemy combatant classification of Guantanimo Bay detainees any longer, (which, BTW, I agree DO and should fall under POW mandates, not law enforcement with constitutional protections.). They want a NEW law that allows them to classify any person ARRESTED on U.S. soil by law enforcement agencies as a terrorist, thereby removing any and all constitutional protections from that person. The Constitution itself says that is a big assed NO-NO.

If you do not see the desire, let alone the action of using an undefined "he's a terrorist" method of sidestepping the Constitution as WRONG, then there is something seriously wrong with the way you read our Constitution.

The Patriot Act, much like the Arizona Illegal Immigration Law, is misunderstood because people haven't read it, they assume what others say is true, and that's where they have formed their opinions. In order for a United States citizen to be wiretapped without a warrant, this has to be specifically ordered by the executive branch, for rare and extenuating circumstances... much like Holder's exception for Miranda, it is a vital matter of national security, or what is called the "ticking time-bomb scenario", when traditional methods of judicial warranting, could potentially mean thousands of innocent lives lost to a terror attack. The left will have you believe (and many do) that any administration can just listen in on your phone calls at any given time, just because they want to! That is bullshit, and always has been. Any warrantless wiretap situation, still has to be reported through FISA at the earliest possible opportunity, and there is still considerable oversight through this process. The Patriot Act merely allows the principals to act expediently, to prevent a potential terror attack.
I strongly suspect YOU have not read the Patriot Act nor Patriot Act II. And the "they still have to go through FISA" is just one more end-run justification for tromping on 4th Amendment protections. Care to show me WHERE in the 4th Amendment it says the government can seek warrant AFTER they've already done the search and seizure?

The original intent of FISA was to set up a court system that can address highly sensitive cases in a way the common courts cannot do. This was a good law, because sometimes a case involving international elements has classified information attached that freedom of information law attached to the common courts cannot address. But then they added the idea that they can get their info and THEN ask FISA to bless the methods. First these exceptions were tied specifically to foreign derived intelligence. Then they added the international aspect, then domestic. These aspects of FISA are nothing less than an end run around the Constitution, and any law that relies on FISA allowing post-dated warrants is also an end run. It's pissing on our protections and fucking brain dead chicken shit morons are cheering them on.

From a Constitutional standpoint, our Congress needs to pass an official Declaration of War on Radical Islamic Terrorism. That is the piece that is missing here, which makes you uncomfortable with what is being done. The problem is, our government (even Bush) was afraid to do that! Eric Holder couldn't even bring himself to admit the TS bomber was a radical islamic extremist, under intense questioning about that specific aspect. We're scared as fuck to say who we are at war with!
Perhaps we simply need to NAME the terrorist organizations themselves, and not worry what religion is attached. Come out and declare war on Al Queda. Who cares if they are not tied to a specific piece of real estate. Name the organization, and the world knows who it is we are aiming at.

But that still does not help with the situation that due process of law must be followed for all people who are arrested by law enforcement on U.S. soil. Gotta PROVE they are terrorists within our law (including the Supreme Law), THEN declare them enemy combatants and treat them as such. (Geneva convention treaty allows enemy combatants, caught operating within a nation for the enemy, in secret and out of uniform, to be summarily executed under military tribunal.)
 
From your own link:

Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square bomber suspect, was arrested at JFK Airport. by the POLICE. Catch up with current events, pal. We are not talking enemy combatants, suspected enemy combbatants detained or captured by our military. They aren't satisfied with the enemy combatant classification of Guantanimo Bay detainees any longer, (which, BTW, I agree DO and should fall under POW mandates, not law enforcement with constitutional protections.). They want a NEW law that allows them to classify any person ARRESTED on U.S. soil by law enforcement agencies as a terrorist, thereby removing any and all constitutional protections from that person. The Constitution itself says that is a big assed NO-NO.

I wasn't talking about the Times Square bomber being an enemy combatant, I understand he was arrested by police. However, we are in a WAR! For some reason, you do not wish to acknowledge, that we are engaged in a WAR! We did not declare this WAR, it was declared upon us! The problem with defending ourselves in this WAR, is the fact that our enemy has utilized our systems of freedom and liberty, to completely infiltrate our society. They are among us, and there is no practical way to tell who they are. Now, we've apparently decided that we don't have the stomach to change radical Islam over there, we just won't do the heavy lifting it will take to get that done... and our primary concern at this point, is doing the best we can to defend against acts of WAR perpetrated by the enemy living among us. In our never-ending and frantic attempts to try and do this, through the government who's primary responsibility it is, to keep us safe, we are met with the politically correct pinheads who will not allow any profiling of young to middle-age males from the middle east... we can't 'assume' anything... and we have the nitwit libertarians holding up the Constitution, trying to apply it to our enemies, as if they are deserving of that consideration!

All I can say is, you people are INSANE! We are in a WAR for our very existence.... these people intend on killing every last one of us... WE are the INFIDELS! Stop trying to hamstring the people responsible for protecting us from this enemy! Our fundamental rights are NOT being violated or infringed upon to any great degree, and amount to petty inconveniences for the most part. There has never been a case brought before the SCOTUS regarding a Patriot Act violation of civil rights by ANY American citizen. Not ONE!
 
I wasn't talking about the Times Square bomber being an enemy combatant, I understand he was arrested by police. However, we are in a WAR! For some reason, you do not wish to acknowledge, that we are engaged in a WAR! We did not declare this WAR, it was declared upon us! The problem with defending ourselves in this WAR, is the fact that our enemy has utilized our systems of freedom and liberty, to completely infiltrate our society. They are among us, and there is no practical way to tell who they are. Now, we've apparently decided that we don't have the stomach to change radical Islam over there, we just won't do the heavy lifting it will take to get that done... and our primary concern at this point, is doing the best we can to defend against acts of WAR perpetrated by the enemy living among us. In our never-ending and frantic attempts to try and do this, through the government who's primary responsibility it is, to keep us safe, we are met with the politically correct pinheads who will not allow any profiling of young to middle-age males from the middle east... we can't 'assume' anything... and we have the nitwit libertarians holding up the Constitution, trying to apply it to our enemies, as if they are deserving of that consideration!

All I can say is, you people are INSANE! We are in a WAR for our very existence.... these people intend on killing every last one of us... WE are the INFIDELS! Stop trying to hamstring the people responsible for protecting us from this enemy! Our fundamental rights are NOT being violated or infringed upon to any great degree, and amount to petty inconveniences for the most part. There has never been a case brought before the SCOTUS regarding a Patriot Act violation of civil rights by ANY American citizen. Not ONE!

FUCK THE COURTS!!!! THEY ARE WRONG!!!!!! They've been wrong on every major issue concerning rights and freedoms over the last 130 years.
 
FUCK THE COURTS!!!! THEY ARE WRONG!!!!!! They've been wrong on every major issue concerning rights and freedoms over the last 130 years.

Well, what do you suggest? Anarchy? I mean.... really.... we have the SCOTUS... that's what we have! Other countries aren't as fortunate, they have a Minister of Propaganda, or something like that, to decide what is 'proper' and 'acceptable' to the authority. Would you like that system instead? I'm having trouble understanding what you want? You say "fuck the court" so... what do we do to settle these disputes among us?

I think what you are saying is, the court has not agreed with your opinion of what is right and wrong, and your understanding and interpretation of the Constitution, regarding rights and freedoms. This is why the election of a president is important. They get to pick who goes on the court, and we have to live by what those judges decide. It's the system we have, it may not be perfect, but it probably beats mud wrestling, don't you agree?
 
All I can say is, you people are INSANE! We are in a WAR for our very existence.... these people intend on killing every last one of us... WE are the INFIDELS! Stop trying to hamstring the people responsible for protecting us from this enemy! Our fundamental rights are NOT being violated or infringed upon to any great degree, and amount to petty inconveniences for the most part. There has never been a case brought before the SCOTUS regarding a Patriot Act violation of civil rights by ANY American citizen. Not ONE!
"To any great degree"? Any "degree" above zero is too much. "Petty inconveniences" Tell that to those whose civil rights are tossed under the "terrorism" mantra.

If we give up who we are (ie: our very own Constitution) in order to wage this war, then WHAT HAVE WE WON? Nothing, except a new despotic tyranny NOT based on radical Islam. Congratulations. Pick up your boobie prize at the suckers window. The people who are INSANE are the ones who think government will simply GIVE BACK these unconstitutional powers when the current threat is dealt with.

Giving up our freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution is NOT an acceptable means of winning this, or any war. Doing such is LOSING the real war while claiming victory over a few battles.

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, and will lose both.
Benjamin Franklin
 
BTW: Do you for one second think Al Queda has the means to end our very existence? Get a grip, pal. The extremists may WANT to wipe us out. Those who proclaim it as a reachable goal are smoking their own fund raising products. They can (and have) done some nasties to us. And that is not as good thing. Tossing our liberties to (hopefully, but probably not) prevent more nasties is a worse thing.

If your security is worth your freedom, go commit a nice white collar crime (don;t want to hurt anyone) and get sent to the pokey for a good long time where they'll take good care of you and keep you safe. They'll even tuck you in at night. But you and your pet government leave my freedoms the fuck alone.
 
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