APP - FINALLY!

and where it stops nobody knows, but everybody is so "well informed" here.
Straw man again. You seem to make a practice of that. I don't think the ads work on people here because we are better informed than those the ads target. Specifically the uninformed.

And yes, anybody that spends time on a political message board is more informed than almost any voter out there.
 
No, Christie didn't provide any rebuttal, she simply listed the 'rebuttal' from the DNC propaganda machine. She didn't reason out her own opinion, she sipped it from the fountain of kool-aid. Either it's okay to "astroturf" for both sides, or it's time to find different sourcing.

Um, ID didn't reason out her own opinion either, she posted Fleckbot's opinion with a link.

I give Fleckbot all the credibility I'd give any partisan poster on any forum.
 
Um, ID didn't reason out her own opinion either, she posted Fleckbot's opinion with a link.

I give Fleckbot all the credibility I'd give any partisan poster on any forum.
And again, since you refuse to read and understand. Had yours not been a "rebuttal" I'd have been mocking the other side for being unable to debate the topic, rather sipping from the fountain of kool-aid. If this had been put forward to debate on merits then it would be taken as such, instead it was put forward in an attempt at mocking rebuttal.
 
fleckman explain what he thought the bill said and then gave cites

you just said....p. 436 wrong

quite different and if you don't know the difference i am not going to waste my time educating you....as apparently you just want to hang your hat on someone else's rebuttal instead of actually debating points yourself....

Then why aren't you picking apart Fleckbot's quotes and telling us why they're valid?

A tweet that reads: "Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!" or "OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment" hardly indicates rigorous reasoning.

Please explain in your own words the comment "Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!", and why we should take this as truth.
 
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And again, since you refuse to read and understand. Had yours not been a "rebuttal" I'd have been mocking the other side for being unable to debate the topic, rather sipping from the fountain of kool-aid. If this had been put forward to debate on merits then it would be taken as such, instead it was put forward in an attempt at mocking rebuttal.

Sorry, not mocking rebuttal but factual rebuttal. You just don't like the facts so you're going to turn it into a nit-picking farce, basically shooting the messenger.
 
Whatever.

If you don't agree with someone, then any "rebuttal" they might present, no matter how well thought out or researched, you automatically discredit.

Ive been here 6 months and that is how it goes EVERY SINGLE TIME with you.

When are you going to drop the beard and just admit you're a Republican shill?

You nailed it! Not one person picked out any of the facts in the post to criticize, just a lot of distraction about how those facts were presented.
 
Again, nobody said you should believe Fleckman, that is a straw man. We, myself and others on the thread, have asked that instead of attacking the source if you could attack the argument.

We understand you don't like the conciseness of what Fleckman said, let's get past that and get into the meat of the opinions.

Okay.

Flackbot wrote: Pg. 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt. mandates linguistic approp. svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens.

Rebuttal: There isn't a single word in this bill that says illegal aliens will be covered.

Space for your rebuttal to the rebuttal:
 
I haven't read this thread but the idea of reading and huge bill and posting your "findings" as to what the bill does in 140 characters or less is pretty funny.
 
I haven't read this thread but the idea of reading and huge bill and posting your "findings" as to what the bill does in 140 characters or less is pretty funny.

i see...but yet you support people voting for the bill even though they haven't read the full bill.....
 
Then why aren't you picking apart Fleckbot's quotes and telling us why they're valid?

A tweet that reads: "Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!" or "OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment" hardly indicates rigorous reasoning.

Please explain in your own words the comment "Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!", and why we should take this as truth.

as i said earlier in YOUR thread...i only had time to refute a few....i haven't had time to look over his cites...i looked over yours and you couldn't give me the time of day to respond....instead you whined and told me to go take it up with website you copied the stuff from...

wtf is a tweet?
 
But ***Dancer hanging her hat on Fleckman's rebuttal is acceptable?

Christie provided rebuttals to every point made by this "Fleckman" character. If ID can use Fleckman's opinions as debating points, then why can't belme do the same?

No, Christie didn't provide any rebuttal, she simply listed the 'rebuttal' from the DNC propaganda machine. She didn't reason out her own opinion, she sipped it from the fountain of kool-aid. Either it's okay to "astroturf" for both sides, or it's time to find different sourcing.

atually i was taking to belme and she did not even offer a cite....she merely said:

wrong....

and claimed that was what fleckman did...that is false...fleckman reasoned a response, he did not simply say right or wrong....i don't care if someone uses a reasoned rebuttal from someone else, just don't whine that others won't rebut what you say...belme then in post 41 understood this and gave more of her or his reasoned thoughts
 
I am saying what you should understand, that opinion without supplying proper evidence is to be doubted, particularly from an unknown source. Being opinion in itself means there can be divergence. My issue is not what he has said but the fact that just supplying the locations at random and not exact quotes in context, in my mind, makes his conclusions suspect.
I don't expect you to swallow my OPINION, just as, for the above reasons, I do not swallow Fleckman's OPINION, which you expect me to accept as fact. Knowing where he seems to be coming from politically and watching what I have seen for the past few days, leaves me with the conclusion that his findings are likely to be thrown in the same dung pile as death panels, infanticide, icebergs, and bureaucrats in the exam room, etc.

he actually provided page numbers and on some more specific issues line numbers....i consider that specific....and not at all suspect....you can either read the page or page and line number and make your opinion....

he has given ample citation for you or anyone else to be able to counter his opinions....and when i have time i will go through some and counter if see anything that needs countering....if i feel like it
 
Here is a link to the the most egregious portions of the Health Care bill H.R. 3200. On this page is also a direct link to the entire bill.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/walnut-ridge-ar/TTPG4LRBUTDT15K2R



BELOW IS A SAMPLING

Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits u get
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans.#AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed
-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/#AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Another bullshit dump so think it discourages any attempt to refute it because it's hard to imagine anyone looks at it and takes it seriously.

Look at this guys analyses. Somehow translation services means illegals. The bit about government telling doctors what to make? Also total bullshit. They're paying more than even medicare, AND IT ONLY APPLIES TO THE PUBLIC FRIKKING OPTION not all the private coverage you can buy. The health care exchange to bring private plans under government control? That just proves this is all total bullshit and this guy has no fucking idea what he'st alkign about.

How can anyone look at this and find it convincing of anything but the fact that a retarded guy wrote it based on a bill he couldn't understand when he read it.
 
The following post is my opinion on the areas that Feckman listed. Since I have time when I get home to read the huge bill and tell you my opinion I waited until I was home...

The sampling...

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

This isn't quite a truth, in fact it studies the types of insurance given and how it might effect the large pools created by those in regular insurance. Only companies that were selected to be in the study would receive this type of attention. This also studies insurance companies to see how they are effected, these too would receive this attention.

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits u get
This is true, IMO, the "advisory" committee is such that it can make choices based on costs as to what kinds of care you get at what time.

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

This part sets limits for the first tier of coverage. The bill separates care into three levels, "Essential" is the first level and this sets limits for that particular level of care to be adjusted in the future according to the Consumer Price Index. It also sets your copay to 30% of the actuarial tables as coverage is limited to 70%. (I will tell you, this level of coverage bites. When my wife had our first bio-child her costs more than quintupled the limits for a "family" on this plan and that was quite some time ago).

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!
True, but in reality it is no different than a company offering you their selected insurance benefits, you really don't have a "choice". In this case you could choose to pay more for a better level of benefits, from basic "essential" coverage to "premium" coverage.

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

The section guarantees that health care will be provided equally regardless of any extemporaneous qualities of the person. It does, however, exempt this rule from other sections of the bill, which are not evident here. It may not provide insurance to illegals, but I can't really see them taking away care for them.

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!
This is one of the parts I have problems with. Whether it is their intention, this is definitely capable of becoming a national identification card that also links to your financial information. While I see that they are looking for fast paybacks and "near real time" transactions I see it as a huge, and unnecessary, invasion of privacy, no current insurance provider has access to this level of information.

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

This is actually written to happen in both ways, they'll take the payments directly from your accounts. Another thing I dislike. It does not speak to elective fund transfers in this area on this page, but it would be my hope that they would allow you to choose how you want to pay rather than just suck the funds from your accounts.

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
This pays reimbursement for coverage of those in a retirement plan if they meet requirements listed by the legislation.

Basically it begins to reimburse the organization for costs related to insurance for those who are retired. People who now have coverage through retirement would see no benefit from this, but the organizations that provide the coverage would, for sure, receive a reimbursement for costs they do not currently receive reimbursement for, I'd say this is true as it starts giving them money for what they would normally pay. Nor does this move them into coverage under any of the government approved insurance coverages it just simply starts reimbursing for what they would normally cover.

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

I think we've already discussed this. This is also the part that some have listed as the place that forces you to take the government controlled option.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange
this area specifies four levels of coverage they can offer, all contingent on offering the previous level. If you offer the basic plan you can offer the Enhanced plan, if you offer the Enhanced plan you can offer the Premium plan, and if you offer the Premium plan you can offer a Premium plus plan.

No company could offer a Premium plan only, or an Enhanced plan only, they must offer the Basic plan to be able to offer the next tier up and so forth. Levels of coverage will be set so that you can select the basic plan and know exactly what coverages you will get. "Premium Plus" offers dental and vision coverage as well as medical coverage and only if approved by the Commissioner. As far as I can tell there would be no oral health or vision offered to adults under any of the government plans.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!
This talks about the levels of coverage for each of the tiers of insurance provided.

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens
That could be one example, if the coverage is indeed inclusive of illegal immigrants. I haven't yet seen that they are covered.

However health care providers are already required to get translators for illegal immigrants I very much doubt that this would change.

It also could include such things as female doctors for muslim women and male doctors for muslim men and other cultural issues that may arise as well as linguistic challenges. It doesn't say that full effort must be made, just that linguistic services will be provided. I don't know what happens if they are in an area without a translator available or if they are very rural and cultural necessities may not be available.

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

True, outreach programs.

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans.#AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

This is a repeat of one I did earlier.

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
True, you will be automatically enrolled into this under this provision.

It says: "(3) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT OF MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS INTO MEDICAID.—The Commissioner shall provide for a process under which an individual who is described in section 202(d)(3) and has not elected to enroll in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan is automatically enrolled under Medicaid."

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop
True, it specifically says there shall be "no judicial review" of any of the payment rate or methodology.

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/#AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.
I see nothing in this that says they could choose to charge more at any time, to be eligible they must agree to accept the government levels as payment in full (of course they'd get the copay up front).

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

The employee would have a choice to pay for the enhanced, premium, or premium plus... and the only choice for the employer would be either this or the self-covered insurance for which they may end up being part of the "study" that will look through their books and check into levels of coverage...
 
as i said earlier in YOUR thread...i only had time to refute a few....i haven't had time to look over his cites...i looked over yours and you couldn't give me the time of day to respond....instead you whined and told me to go take it up with website you copied the stuff from...

wtf is a tweet?

I responded to you over 6 hours ago. For some reason you managed to comment on other posts on the same thread but "overlooked" mine. :rolleyes:

Twitter is a social network using IM's of 140 words or less in each message, or "tweet".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter
 
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i see...but yet you support people voting for the bill even though they haven't read the full bill.....




......but yet you support people making wild, unfounded charges about the bill....."even though they haven't read the full bill."
 
The following post is my opinion on the areas that Feckman listed. Since I have time when I get home to read the huge bill and tell you my opinion I waited until I was home...

The sampling...



This isn't quite a truth, in fact it studies the types of insurance given and how it might effect the large pools created by those in regular insurance. Only companies that were selected to be in the study would receive this type of attention. This also studies insurance companies to see how they are effected, these too would receive this attention.


This is true, IMO, the "advisory" committee is such that it can make choices based on costs as to what kinds of care you get at what time.



This part sets limits for the first tier of coverage. The bill separates care into three levels, "Essential" is the first level and this sets limits for that particular level of care to be adjusted in the future according to the Consumer Price Index. It also sets your copay to 30% of the actuarial tables as coverage is limited to 70%. (I will tell you, this level of coverage bites. When my wife had our first bio-child her costs more than quintupled the limits for a "family" on this plan and that was quite some time ago).


True, but in reality it is no different than a company offering you their selected insurance benefits, you really don't have a "choice". In this case you could choose to pay more for a better level of benefits, from basic "essential" coverage to "premium" coverage.



The section guarantees that health care will be provided equally regardless of any extemporaneous qualities of the person. It does, however, exempt this rule from other sections of the bill, which are not evident here. It may not provide insurance to illegals, but I can't really see them taking away care for them.


This is one of the parts I have problems with. Whether it is their intention, this is definitely capable of becoming a national identification card that also links to your financial information. While I see that they are looking for fast paybacks and "near real time" transactions I see it as a huge, and unnecessary, invasion of privacy, no current insurance provider has access to this level of information.



This is actually written to happen in both ways, they'll take the payments directly from your accounts. Another thing I dislike. It does not speak to elective fund transfers in this area on this page, but it would be my hope that they would allow you to choose how you want to pay rather than just suck the funds from your accounts.


This pays reimbursement for coverage of those in a retirement plan if they meet requirements listed by the legislation.

Basically it begins to reimburse the organization for costs related to insurance for those who are retired. People who now have coverage through retirement would see no benefit from this, but the organizations that provide the coverage would, for sure, receive a reimbursement for costs they do not currently receive reimbursement for, I'd say this is true as it starts giving them money for what they would normally pay. Nor does this move them into coverage under any of the government approved insurance coverages it just simply starts reimbursing for what they would normally cover.



I think we've already discussed this. This is also the part that some have listed as the place that forces you to take the government controlled option.


this area specifies four levels of coverage they can offer, all contingent on offering the previous level. If you offer the basic plan you can offer the Enhanced plan, if you offer the Enhanced plan you can offer the Premium plan, and if you offer the Premium plan you can offer a Premium plus plan.

No company could offer a Premium plan only, or an Enhanced plan only, they must offer the Basic plan to be able to offer the next tier up and so forth. Levels of coverage will be set so that you can select the basic plan and know exactly what coverages you will get. "Premium Plus" offers dental and vision coverage as well as medical coverage and only if approved by the Commissioner. As far as I can tell there would be no oral health or vision offered to adults under any of the government plans.


This talks about the levels of coverage for each of the tiers of insurance provided.


That could be one example, if the coverage is indeed inclusive of illegal immigrants. I haven't yet seen that they are covered.

However health care providers are already required to get translators for illegal immigrants I very much doubt that this would change.

It also could include such things as female doctors for muslim women and male doctors for muslim men and other cultural issues that may arise as well as linguistic challenges. It doesn't say that full effort must be made, just that linguistic services will be provided. I don't know what happens if they are in an area without a translator available or if they are very rural and cultural necessities may not be available.



True, outreach programs.



This is a repeat of one I did earlier.


True, you will be automatically enrolled into this under this provision.

It says: "(3) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT OF MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS INTO MEDICAID.—The Commissioner shall provide for a process under which an individual who is described in section 202(d)(3) and has not elected to enroll in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan is automatically enrolled under Medicaid."


True, it specifically says there shall be "no judicial review" of any of the payment rate or methodology.


I see nothing in this that says they could choose to charge more at any time, to be eligible they must agree to accept the government levels as payment in full (of course they'd get the copay up front).



The employee would have a choice to pay for the enhanced, premium, or premium plus... and the only choice for the employer would be either this or the self-covered insurance for which they may end up being part of the "study" that will look through their books and check into levels of coverage...

What's a bio-child?
 
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