Hillary Announces Her Health Care Plan (Sorta)

This is so sad. The free markets have provided for health insurance for years. Now that its going to be free, doctors offices are going to be flooded with people making it harder for the rest of us to get into see one. Pretty soon, our healthcare will be as free and horrible as France's. If people want their kids to have health care they should get another job at say....McDonald's.
 
Who,

It's clearly not going to be free healthcare. And the free market has failed to provide 45 million people in the US with healthcare.
 
Being in Iraq and paying for a full-scale anti insurgency are two different things. It's not going to cost 70 billion/year forever.

How do you expect we are going to maitain our military bases while an insurgency/civil war is raging? Until they have a domestic oppressor that can do the job we will have to fill the role. No reason to believe that will end any sooner with Clinton.

On top of that, she'll let the Bush tax breaks expire for people making $250,000/year, make a portion of insurance contributions by employers for the best health care plans taxable income. She'll streamline Medicare to cut overpayments, improve record keeping, and come up with $50+ billion that way.

The last one about "streamlining" is a pipedream. It is unlikely.

It seems like that would all be just about enough to cover most of the cost, and then we'd wind up with almost everyone being covered.

Dude, you are a complete fool if you do not know that the cost of these things are always greatly understated.

Plus, when the insurance companies start jacking up their rates and people/businesses are struggling to pay their premiums what's going to happen?

Considering the biggest evil in society is taxes to you Libertarians, I can see why you'd dislike it. The rest of us of course see it as a matter of saving lives and keeping people from losing their homes to pay for necessary medical treatment.

No, you see it as more power for the state, more jobs for bureaurats.
 
I love giving jobs to bureaucrats.

Your dismissal of Hillary's projected figures for the cost of it and the programs and the gains made by taxes and streamlining are conjecture. Someone will do an analysis soon - probably FactCheck.org - and we'll know for sure.

And it'll be interesting to see if she addresses the issue of insurance companies taking advantage of it by raising rates arbitrarily. This obviously isn't going to save anyone money if the rates just increase due to gouging (OOOH! You HATE that word!). We'll see if she addresses this in her plan.
 
Who,

It's clearly not going to be free healthcare. And the free market has failed to provide 45 million people in the US with healthcare.

Maybe those 45 million didn't want health care. Have you ever thought of that? Being a market intrusionist and forcing health care coverage on everyone is unamerican.
Liberals are using this bill as an excuse to raise taxes. Let people donate money to hospitals if they want to help out. There is no need to force us into this.
 
I love giving jobs to bureaucrats.

Your dismissal of Hillary's projected figures for the cost of it and the programs and the gains made by taxes and streamlining are conjecture. Someone will do an analysis soon - probably FactCheck.org - and we'll know for sure.

Her numbers are conjecture. I really bet she is going to propose a cut in medicare.
 
SF, you made a point about addressing, and reducing, the costs of health care. We talked a little about this on the "Sicko" thread back in July. One of the issues was to reduce our need for medical attention by adopting healthier lifestyles. My post (transcript follows) expanded this into other areas that also should be understood so that they can be addressed:

I'm with you, SF, on the points you're making. Unquestionably a healthier lifestyle will reduce the need for expensive health care that in effect is a response to the consequences of some very unhealthy behaviors.

This will of course only address a few of the problems that the system faces, but perhaps it's a start.

Schools are becoming increasingly conscious of the nutritional content in cafeteria offerings, and seem to be taking steps to reduce empty calories and increase nutrition. There are a couple of things more that the school systems could do, relatively inexpensively, and these might help a lot to promote a healthy lifestyle.
One, when I was in both primary and secondary school, we had a class called "Health", connected to the PE courses. In that we learned a lot about nutrition, daily requirements, anatomy and physiology of nutrition, etc. I understand that such classes are rarely offered here, and my younger sister's apparent ignorance of some of these topics suggests that her schools didn't offer them either.
Two, I've read recently that many schools are actually scrapping their physical education/gym classes. These should be reinstated immediately. Exercise not only tones growing muscles, it increases blood flow and is a great help to learning.

The cost of a medical education is astronomical. A friend of mine says that he won't have finished paying off his loans for tuition/fees until he's over 45 years of age. It's unreasonable to expect people to go through all this training for several years (8 years formal education plus x years residency depending upon the chosen field before a physician may begin to practice) without the expectation of an extremely good compensation at the end of training. We should be focusing more on recruiting the very best candidates, not just those who can afford to pay. Physician incompetence is a subject for another thread, however. In the meantime, check out the costs of a medical education at this link:
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsa...ndex_brief.php

It's easy to blame "big Pharma", and certainly they aren't entirely innocent, but pharma is only a part of the whole. As SF pointed out (I think) the costs of drugs that make it through all the testing to FDA approval reflect also the costs of developing all those drugs that never make it that far. Case in point: we're testing putative antipsychotic drugs that act selectively on the mesolimbic dopamine system, but before we get a drug to test it has to go through all sorts of cardiovascular safety tests. Many fail. That's expensive no matter how you calculate it. Our tests may bring a drug closer to clinical trials but this is only one small step in the process. Every drug goes through this testing procedure.

We have the most sophisticated diagnostic equipment in history. Good. The bad part of this is that it's horrendously expensive to develop and the market for this equipment is highly specialized and thus very small; there won't be much cost reduction by mass production. At the same time, the minute the term "medicine" or "science" is attached to a product, its price seems suddenly to skyrocket. If I can purchase a tool outside the lab equipment provider system I do, and usually at 1/3 the cost -- for the same item! Other items, though, like syringes, can't be so purchased.

The obscene profits garnered by the health insurance companies are another item that should be evaluated. If health insurance were publicly run then those not-inconsiderable costs would disappear. That's pretty simplistic; other administrative costs endemic to government probably would eat up a part of that.

This is probably my longest post. Long enough to leave it for now.
 
And it'll be interesting to see if she addresses the issue of insurance companies taking advantage of it by raising rates arbitrarily. This obviously isn't going to save anyone money if the rates just increase due to gouging (OOOH! You HATE that word!). We'll see if she addresses this in her plan.

She will probably just wait until the evil corporations have spoiled her plan and then go for more government solutions. Idiots like you will be in line to eat it up.
 
I like this part...

Joking that her proposals "won't make me the insurance industry's woman of the year," Clinton said companies would no longer be able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions or genetic predisposition to certain illnesses.

...
Are you kidding? The insurance companies will adore her. She is forcing everyone to buy insurance and subsidizing it. This is why they have donated big money to her campaigns.
Yeah, this is quite the corporate welfare plan. It does nothing to lower the cost of healthcare it just hides it in your taxes and it gives tons of cash away to the very companies that caused the "need" for such coverage.

They are thrilled with the guaranteed profits they could reap if such a plan were passed. It's insane. It's like Bush and his insane pill bill that is basically corporate welfare as well. Man, there is nothing like proving you are a neo-con regardless of party...

Actually I'd call her a neo-prog. She wants to do it even bigger and more expensively with even more corporate welfare.
 
Just remove all regulations, laws, and rules, and let the free market sort it out.

Yeah, first step, get back to as bad as it was before statists fd it up with the pill bill. Then, before the screw up of mandating numerous types of coverage. Maybe, decouple insurance and employmnet. Hopefully, get all the way back before you screwed us with HMOs. Certainly, better than continuing down the same path.
 
Just remove all regulations, laws, and rules, and let the free market sort it out.
Sure, it's the same thing, now they'd just be government-sanctioned. It's the solution of the Century! If you own healthcare companies, at least.... For the rest of us it is rape.
 
I like this part...

Joking that her proposals "won't make me the insurance industry's woman of the year," Clinton said companies would no longer be able to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions or genetic predisposition to certain illnesses.

...
Are you kidding? The insurance companies will adore her. She is forcing everyone to buy insurance and subsidizing it. This is why they have donated big money to her campaigns.

Has anyone on here tried changing insurance compaines or jobs with an existing serious pre existing health condition. Some of us maybe but most on here are too young to understand...
 
Has anyone on here tried changing insurance compaines or jobs with an existing serious pre existing health condition. Some of us maybe but most on here are too young to understand...

Good reason to decouple it from employment, another one of the statist fuckups.
 
... that's part of Hillary's plan, by the way. The "mobility" as she calls it to change jobs and not lose your health care.
 
SF, you made a point about addressing, and reducing, the costs of health care. We talked a little about this on the "Sicko" thread back in July. One of the issues was to reduce our need for medical attention by adopting healthier lifestyles. My post (transcript follows) expanded this into other areas that also should be understood so that they can be addressed:

I'm with you, SF, on the points you're making. Unquestionably a healthier lifestyle will reduce the need for expensive health care that in effect is a response to the consequences of some very unhealthy behaviors.

This will of course only address a few of the problems that the system faces, but perhaps it's a start.....

....by the health insurance companies are another item that should be evaluated. If health insurance were publicly run then those not-inconsiderable costs would disappear. That's pretty simplistic; other administrative costs endemic to government probably would eat up a part of that.

This is probably my longest post. Long enough to leave it for now.

For the sake of those reading, I cut part of thorns above so that it doesn't make this one post too long.... the remainder can obviously be found in her original post.

Thorn... a very good post and I agree with you on the vast majority. Health/PE classes are a must for k-12 students. It should be mandatory for all students to take an hour a day. We tend to develop our habits as children. Obviously kids will learn their habits both at home and at school, so we need to reach out to the parents in some manner as well. You see some companies doing the "biggest loser" type challenges. I think this is smart on the part of the companies doing so. Bringing in a dietician/trainer to show people how they can eat better/exercise and encouraging employees to do so will typically help with their productivity (not to mention a typically better attitude).

Side note: Before idiots like Cypress jump on here and claim yet again that I am somehow suggesting that better eating and exercise is an all encompassing plan, I am not suggesting any such thing. This is simply ONE of the steps that needs to be taken.

As you mention Thorn, the costs of a medical education are high and we need to find a way to make it affordable for those who have the minds and talent but not the cash flow to go to medical school. The skyrocketing costs of all college education needs to be looked at. ESPECIALLY with state run schools. If taxes are paying for these schools, we need to know why their costs are escalating at over two times the rate of inflation.

There are many other ways to reduce costs. As you stated, one is to cut the costs of products/tools that the researchers buy that are available outside of the medical channel. Another is to elminate the advertising for all these drugs. It is sickening the rate at which people are taking these drugs and more sickening is the amount of money being spent on these ads that could be better served if they were to invest in new R&D or reducing the costs of the drugs being sold. A third would be reduce malpractice claims. Obviously these are just a few of the things we can do. But the main focus should be on how to reduce the costs involved and not "who" should pay for them. Get the costs under control and you will find the second problem not as significant.
 
Sure, it's the same thing, now they'd just be government-sanctioned. It's the solution of the Century! If you own healthcare companies, at least.... For the rest of us it is rape.

God forbid that any for-profit doctors or hospitals make more money, treating more people who were previously uninsured. As for me? I think I could live with doctors making more money, as long as more people were being treated.

Now, if your argument is against the middleman - those for-profit insurance companies - that really have nothing to do with providing healthcare, and if you're saying we should have a single payer universal system that bypasses the unneccessary middleman, then I'm with you.
 
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