Holocaust Denial - American Style

[Cypress]

Holocaust Denial - American Style.


The statistical methods used to estimate the total number of Iraqi dead since the invasion, are the same methods used to estimate death totals in other conflict regions - including Darfur. No one disputes the Darfur estimates.

Based on all sources, the number of violent deaths in Iraq, since Bush invaded, number from the hundreds of thousands, to over one million. Putting it on a par with Rwanda, in terms of violence and death. Naturally, we hear very little about the scale of carnage in the corporate american media.



1) Iraq's Health Minister, November 2006: 150,000 Dead Iraq Civilians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111000164.html

(this number is over a year old, the Health Ministry only tallied civlians and police. It doesn't account for the deaths of soldiers and insurgents, and it mainly tallies the number of bodies that show up in morgues and hospitals. As such, the current actual number of Iraqi dead is certainly far in excess of 150,000)


2) Johns Hopkins University/Lancet Medical Journal, October 2005: Over 600,000 Dead Iraqis

(this estimate is also over a year old)


2)British Polling Company, Opinion Research Business, September 2007: Over One Million Dead Iraqis

(this is the most recent estimate - and is relatively consistent with the Lancet Study, if Lancet were updated on the basis of deaths since last year)




The estimate of more than one million violent deaths in Iraq was confirmed again two months ago in a poll by the British polling firm Opinion Research Business, which estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths since the US invasion. This is consistent with the study conducted by doctors and scientists from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health more than a year ago. Their study was published in the Lancet, Britain's leading medical journal. It estimated 601,000 people killed due to violence as of July 2006; but if updated on the basis of deaths since the study, this estimate would also be more than a million. These estimates do not include those who have died because of public health problems created by the war, including breakdowns in sewerage systems and electricity, shortages of medicines, etc.



http://alternet.org/waroniraq/68568/

 

[Battleborne]

Good Lord...........

Do you even know what the words fair & balanced are...why do you never post articles about the good things happening in Iraq?...Like US Military rebuilding infrastructuers,providing health care and food to the needy...hell even some soldiers have adopted orphans...what have you done but continually bitch and whine?

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Do you even know what the words fair & balanced are...why do you never post articles about the good things happening in Iraq?...Like US Military rebuilding infrastructuers,providing health care and food to the needy...hell even some soldiers have adopted orphans...what have you done but continually bitch and whine?

Why in the world should he or anyone else post fluffy, feel-good articles of that kind? Those anecdotes, while true enough, are almost entirely irrelevant.

I've no doubt that the overwhelming majority of our troops in Iraq are doing their best to help the Iraqi people. Many of them are making truly Herculean efforts. In some cases, area commanders have been far more effective than the State Department and civilian contractors at providing relief to the hardest hit Iraqis. As nice as all that is, however, it doesn't amount to much in the long run. Not enough to make up for the damage we've done.

This shouldn't be taken as a condemnation of the troops, obviously. There's little enough they can do when their political leaders have determined that the Iraqis don't really matter. The troops don't set policy: the best they can hope to do is to work around the most egregious failings of policy from time to time.

Our political leadership decided back in 2002 (or earlier) that killing tens of thousands of Iraqis was justified. I'm willing to stipulate that they probably underestimated the number of deaths they would cause but, honestly, I don't see how that exonerates them much.

No matter how you spin it the vast majority of all the deaths by violence among Iraqis since March 2003 result directly from American decisions and actions. We bear nearly sole responsibility for the state of Iraq today, and I don't think it's much of stretch to say that our occupation has been worse than Saddam Hussein's regime.

Why harp on this? Because I believe we can't allow ourselves to shirk our responsibility. We have to own up to what we've done and try to set it right, to whatever extent that's possible.

 

[gonzojournals]

People die in war, zomg!

 

[OrnotBitwise]

People die in war, zomg!

Yes, and far more people suffer when they're crippled or their homes are destroyed. That's why war is to be avoided at almost any cost.

We knew for a fact that this would be the result of our invasion: as you say, people die in war. Yes, it turned out to be worse than we expected but the result is still our responsibility.

 

[gonzojournals]

Yes, it is our responsibility, but it isn't something that the American public should lose sleep over--- the fact is that war is a messy thing....trying to advocate for it to be anything else just costs American lives instead of Iraqis.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Yes, it is our responsibility, but it isn't something that the American public should lose sleep over--- the fact is that war is a messy thing....trying to advocate for it to be anything else just costs American lives instead of Iraqis.

I disagree. It's shameful in the extreme and I don't think any American should be comfortable with it. We need to learn from the mistake and that does not mean just pretending it's no big deal.

There's also the practical question of what the rest of the world is going to demand from us in recompense. Part of that will almost certainly include some sort of public admission that we screwed the pooch this time.

 

[Cancel7]

Yes, it is our responsibility, but it isn't something that the American public should lose sleep over--- the fact is that war is a messy thing....trying to advocate for it to be anything else just costs American lives instead of Iraqis.

Over 100 people die in car crashes every day in this country. More on holiday weekends. This is the fourth day of an extended holiday weekend, so we can calculate that somewhere between 400 and 450 people died in car crashes since Thursday morning.

But this piece of shit lived to make this post.

 

[Cancel7]

I disagree. It's shameful in the extreme and I don't think any American should be comfortable with it. We need to learn from the mistake and that does not mean just pretending it's no big deal.

There's also the practical question of what the rest of the world is going to demand from us in recompense. Part of that will almost certainly include some sort of public admission that we screwed the pooch this time.

He doesn't give any more of a shit than the majority of Americans who waddled their big asses around Kmart at 4am to get a clock radio on sale.

You honestly think that anyone who made a post like that cares about anything other than his own ass?

 

[Cypress]

People die in war, zomg!

Yes, that's why many of us asked in 2003, why on earth would we want to commit the immoral act of sacrificing hundreds of thousands to their deaths, when there was no evidence of imminent threats, no evidence of Saddam/Al Qaeda collaboration, and there were inspectors on the ground who were turning up zero evidence of anything that could threaten us.

 

[Cypress]

In addition to the oceans of blood Dear Leader Bush has helped unleash, we can't overlook the tremendous strides in civil rights that BushCo. bears some responsibility for:

NBC: 'Wave of violence' against women in US-occupied Iraq

Saturday November 24, 2007

"Iraqi women were once the most emancipated in the Arab world," says correspondent Tom Aspell. "Educated, encouraged to work and vote; even allowed to divorce."

Women in US-occupied Iraq, in sharp contrast, are frequent targets of violence at the hands of Shiite militiamen and "religious zealots," according to the Iraqi government, especially in the southern city of Basra.

"I'm sorry to say that we've started to lose," says Iraqi MP Safia al-Souhail.

In Basra, over fifty women are known to have been murdered, often after being humiliated, but police are often too scared to investigate.

Says al-Souhail, a lot of women are killed for how they dress, wearing makeup, or for having jobs.

"They want us to be just like the Taliban," says Iraqi television reporter Hadil Sabbagh, having received death threats from such extremists even while on assignment in Baghdad, considered cosmopolitan in comparison to Basra...

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/NBC_Wave_of_violence_against_women_1124.html

 

[Topspin]

over a million Iraqi's died because of 911. WTF
The next dem pres needs to get us the fuck out and stop these pre-emptive our presumptous wars.

 

[Epicurus]

over a million Iraqi's died because of 911. WTF
The next dem pres needs to get us the fuck out and stop these pre-emptive our presumptous wars.

Yeah I'm confident that will happen.

/Sarcasm Off.

 

[gonzojournals]

He doesn't give any more of a shit than the majority of Americans who waddled their big asses around Kmart at 4am to get a clock radio on sale.

You honestly think that anyone who made a post like that cares about anything other than his own ass?

I don't give a shit about anyone other than my own countrymen, if that's what you mean.

People like you sat around smoking joints and spitting on troops while real patriots waded through blood in Vietnam, and the same thing is happening here now--- you seem to think that because you have enough money and enough security in your country to worry about enemy combatants dying means that the rest of the world shares your pathetic sensabilities, and it isn't true....the Iraqis killing our soldiers don't give a shit about how many Americans die, there are no Iraqis protesting that Americans are dying, yet you sit in your living room and pass judgment on those out there fighting to keep the world safe....maybe Iraq is a war that was based on a false premise, but I assure you that all of the "Bush lied, kids died" recitation in the world will not change the fact that Saddam Hussein was a genocidal lunatic.

So yes, if 600,000 or 1,000,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, I say good riddance--- because that means 1,000,000 fuckers that can't send home one of my buddies in a body bag. As for innocent civilian casualties, that sucks for them, but that is the reality of war.

So don't sit there behind the anonymity of your computer screen and wish for my death because I still have some patriotism; instead wish for the deaths of the people that have been killing Americans for decades now while we hid behind the false ideology of the peace symbol and the broken, decaying culture that it represented.

 

[Epicurus]

instead wish for the deaths of the people that have been killing Americans for decades now while we hid behind the false ideology of the peace symbol and the broken, decaying culture that it represented.

You sound slightly more like a fascist everday.

 

[AnglScarlett]

I don't give a shit about anyone other than my own countrymen, if that's what you mean.

People like you sat around smoking joints and spitting on troops while real patriots waded through blood in Vietnam, and the same thing is happening here now--- you seem to think that because you have enough money and enough security in your country to worry about enemy combatants dying means that the rest of the world shares your pathetic sensabilities, and it isn't true....the Iraqis killing our soldiers don't give a shit about how many Americans die, there are no Iraqis protesting that Americans are dying, yet you sit in your living room and pass judgment on those out there fighting to keep the world safe....maybe Iraq is a war that was based on a false premise, but I assure you that all of the "Bush lied, kids died" recitation in the world will not change the fact that Saddam Hussein was a genocidal lunatic.

So yes, if 600,000 or 1,000,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, I say good riddance--- because that means 1,000,000 fuckers that can't send home one of my buddies in a body bag. As for innocent civilian casualties, that sucks for them, but that is the reality of war.

So don't sit there behind the anonymity of your computer screen and wish for my death because I still have some patriotism; instead wish for the deaths of the people that have been killing Americans for decades now while we hid behind the false ideology of the peace symbol and the broken, decaying culture that it represented.

Bravo! I am hoping for 3 million dead myself, I do not see how they can declare victory if we kill 3 million of them? RJS says we keep our troops there until 3 million worthless Iraqis are dead, and then we declare victory with honor and bring our brave boys home!

It is good to see a true patriot on these boards, sometimes I cannot believe what I am reading, crying and whining over dead Iraqis, arguing over numbers? Is it 600 thousand is it a million, is it moore than a million, will we ever know for sure? RJS says, who cares? And the answer is, no we will never know for sure, because noone of any importance cares how many are dead. I think that this Darla is slightly tetched in the head?

 

[gonzojournals]

Bravo! I am hoping for 3 million dead myself, I do not see how they can declare victory if we kill 3 million of them? RJS says we keep our troops there until 3 million worthless Iraqis are dead, and then we declare victory with honor and bring our brave boys home!

It is good to see a true patriot on these boards, sometimes I cannot believe what I am reading, crying and whining over dead Iraqis, arguing over numbers? Is it 600 thousand is it a million, is it moore than a million, will we ever know for sure? RJS says, who cares? And the answer is, no we will never know for sure, because noone of any importance cares how many are dead. I think that this Darla is slightly tetched in the head?

They can never declare victory--- all that can happen is the media's undermining of morale until we decide that we have lost, same as 'Nam.

 

[Beefy]

Why in the world should he or anyone else post fluffy, feel-good articles of that kind? Those anecdotes, while true enough, are almost entirely irrelevant.

I've no doubt that the overwhelming majority of our troops in Iraq are doing their best to help the Iraqi people. Many of them are making truly Herculean efforts. In some cases, area commanders have been far more effective than the State Department and civilian contractors at providing relief to the hardest hit Iraqis. As nice as all that is, however, it doesn't amount to much in the long run. Not enough to make up for the damage we've done.

This shouldn't be taken as a condemnation of the troops, obviously. There's little enough they can do when their political leaders have determined that the Iraqis don't really matter. The troops don't set policy: the best they can hope to do is to work around the most egregious failings of policy from time to time.

Our political leadership decided back in 2002 (or earlier) that killing tens of thousands of Iraqis was justified. I'm willing to stipulate that they probably underestimated the number of deaths they would cause but, honestly, I don't see how that exonerates them much.

No matter how you spin it the vast majority of all the deaths by violence among Iraqis since March 2003 result directly from American decisions and actions. We bear nearly sole responsibility for the state of Iraq today, and I don't think it's much of stretch to say that our occupation has been worse than Saddam Hussein's regime.

Why harp on this? Because I believe we can't allow ourselves to shirk our responsibility. We have to own up to what we've done and try to set it right, to whatever extent that's possible.

Quoted for truth. Here it is Gonzo, the flat fucking truth. We have not only engaged an effort that has left nearly 4,000 dead Americans, and 10 times as many injured and maimed, but we've done so at the EXPENSE of our National Interest.

Do you get that? All these guys have died, all these guys have been fucked up, coming home without limbs and eyes and with skin grafts.... And we have gained nothing. NOTHING. We've lost far more than if we had never gone in, and you want to keep sending these guys into this shit? For what? What do you want ut of this thing? What dream do you have that will cover up all this blood?

You care about our guys more than the Iraqis? What are you doing to get them the fuck out of this disaster? Or is it a success to you?

I don't give a shit about anyone other than my own countrymen, if that's what you mean.

People like you sat around smoking joints and spitting on troops while real patriots waded through blood in Vietnam, and the same thing is happening here now--- you seem to think that because you have enough money and enough security in your country to worry about enemy combatants dying means that the rest of the world shares your pathetic sensabilities, and it isn't true....the Iraqis killing our soldiers don't give a shit about how many Americans die, there are no Iraqis protesting that Americans are dying, yet you sit in your living room and pass judgment on those out there fighting to keep the world safe....maybe Iraq is a war that was based on a false premise, but I assure you that all of the "Bush lied, kids died" recitation in the world will not change the fact that Saddam Hussein was a genocidal lunatic.

So yes, if 600,000 or 1,000,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, I say good riddance--- because that means 1,000,000 fuckers that can't send home one of my buddies in a body bag. As for innocent civilian casualties, that sucks for them, but that is the reality of war.

So don't sit there behind the anonymity of your computer screen and wish for my death because I still have some patriotism; instead wish for the deaths of the people that have been killing Americans for decades now while we hid behind the false ideology of the peace symbol and the broken, decaying culture that it represented.

You have no idea that war begets more war do you? And that more war means more dead Americans? And more dead Americans means more war.

You must be half schtick here. You must be.

 

[gonzojournals]

Quoted for truth. Here it is Gonzo, the flat fucking truth. We have not only engaged an effort that has left nearly 4,000 dead Americans, and 10 times as many injured and maimed, but we've done so at the EXPENSE of our National Interest.

4000 dead! Wow! While each American death is a tragedy, you must always keep in mind the numbers involved....an American soldier is more likely to die in traffic than in Iraq at the present rate of casualties. The American people need to learn to accept that violence happens, and that, while each soldier's sacrifice should never be forgotten, war is an ugly business and these things do happen.

Do you get that? All these guys have died, all these guys have been fucked up, coming home without limbs and eyes and with skin grafts.... And we have gained nothing. NOTHING. We've lost far more than if we had never gone in, and you want to keep sending these guys into this shit? For what? What do you want ut of this thing? What dream do you have that will cover up all this blood?

What have we lost?

You care about our guys more than the Iraqis? What are you doing to get them the fuck out of this disaster? Or is it a success to you?

I don't see a disaster, no. Of course, I'm not blinded by delicate sensabilities and I do not take my liberties for granted.

You have no idea that war begets more war do you? And that more war means more dead Americans? And more dead Americans means more war.

You must be half schtick here. You must be.

Apparently you have no idea that anything begets more war...war is an inseparable part of human nature, and it will happen whether we embrace the unrealistic dream of holding hands under a multicultural rainbow or whether we embrace the realist reality of global politics--- zero sum game.

 

[Agnosticus_Caesar]

[4000 dead! Wow! While each American death is a tragedy, you must always keep in mind the numbers involved....an American soldier is more likely to die in traffic than in Iraq at the present rate of casualties. The American people need to learn to accept that violence happens, and that, while each soldier's sacrifice should never be forgotten, war is an ugly business and these things do happen.]

Funny, I spent a year in California, a state about the size of Iraq, when I was in The Marine Corps. I'd be willing to bet that if you compared the number of service members in California, to the number of service numbers in Iraq, and compare the traffic related deaths, to the number of war related deaths, your statement would become ridiculous.

It is STUPID to compare the number of traffic accidents in the US to the number of war related deaths in Iraq.

When all the bullshit is swept aside, closing on 4000 service members are dead, and tens of thousands grievously wounded, due to a bundle of fucking lies that the right wing still refuses to acknowledge.