How good a physicist was Oppenheimer?

Cypress

Will work for Scooby snacks
To learn about Oppenheimer the scientist, Science spoke with David C. Cassidy, a physicist and historian emeritus at Hofstra University.

Q: Oppenheimer’s name appears in the early applications of quantum mechanics and the theory of black holes. How good a physicist was he?

A: Well, he was no Einstein. And he’s not even up to the level of Heisenberg, Pauli, Schrödinger, Dirac, the leaders of the quantum revolution of the 1920s. One of the reasons for this was his birth date. He was born in 1904, so he was 3 years younger than Heisenberg, 4 years younger than Pauli. Those few years were enough to place him in the second wave of the quantum revolution and behind the main wave of discovery, in what [philosopher of science] Thomas Kuhn called the “mopping-up operation,” applications of the new theory.

Q: He’s known for the Born-Oppenheimer approximation, which helped extend quantum mechanics from atoms to molecules.

A: That was one of his most cited papers. He wrote that in 1927 while he was in Göttingen [Germany, doing his doctoral work with Max Born]. That same year, Heisenberg presented the uncertainty principle. Bohr and Heisenberg put out the Copenhagen interpretation [of quantum mechanics]. So here’s Oppenheimer doing an application, but a good one because it helped introduce [the method of] quantum perturbation theory.

Q: Even some of his contemporaries said he was a dilettante. How good he was in terms of raw skill?

A: He had the skill and the brilliance. But he didn’t have the focus. He was not absolutely devoted to physics the way one of the great physicists would be. It was just one of his many passions. At the time he was doing physics, he read a lot of literature and languages. Also, in the U.S., the empirical way of approaching physics was predominant [whereas European theorists were pursuing new concepts]. So the theorists’ job was to help experimentalists understand their data. As the physics and the experiments were shifting, his interest shifted, too.

One of his main contributions had only a tenuous connection to observation, and that was black holes. That was an unfortunate situation. In 1939, he and a student, Hartland Snyder, published a paper predicting [collapsing stars could form] black holes, and the whole thing got ignored. They couldn’t pursue it because the war was breaking out. A lot of people just ignored it because it seemed impossible—how could anything collapse to an infinitely dense point?—until [physicist John] Wheeler revived the matter in the 1960s. Not until the 1990s was there any experimental evidence for black holes. I think Oppenheimer would have gotten a Nobel Prize if he was still alive at that point.

Q: How did Oppenheimer, a theorist, end up directing the Manhattan Project, a gigantic experiment?

A: It was even worse. Oppenheimer had no administrative experience. No Nobel Prize, unlike many of the people whom he would be administering. And worst of all, he had a doubtful political background, with associations with known Communists in the late 1930s. But [Lt. Gen. Leslie] Groves picked him specifically. First of all, because of Oppenheimer’s grasp of the physics and his ability to explain it to him. Also, because Oppenheimer was highly respected by the other physicists. But the main reason was Groves knew that Oppenheimer would be permanently vulnerable because of his political associations. Groves suppressed a lot of the security agents’ reports on him and said, “I want this man for the job.” So, Oppenheimer knew he was there only because he was under Groves’s protection.



https://www.science.org/content/art...er-s-celebrity-just-how-good-physicist-was-he
 
To learn about Oppenheimer the scientist, Science spoke with David C. Cassidy, a physicist and historian emeritus at Hofstra University.

Q: Oppenheimer’s name appears in the early applications of quantum mechanics and the theory of black holes. How good a physicist was he?

A: Well, he was no Einstein. And he’s not even up to the level of Heisenberg, Pauli, Schrödinger, Dirac, the leaders of the quantum revolution of the 1920s. One of the reasons for this was his birth date. He was born in 1904, so he was 3 years younger than Heisenberg, 4 years younger than Pauli. Those few years were enough to place him in the second wave of the quantum revolution and behind the main wave of discovery, in what [philosopher of science] Thomas Kuhn called the “mopping-up operation,” applications of the new theory.

Q: He’s known for the Born-Oppenheimer approximation, which helped extend quantum mechanics from atoms to molecules.

A: That was one of his most cited papers. He wrote that in 1927 while he was in Göttingen [Germany, doing his doctoral work with Max Born]. That same year, Heisenberg presented the uncertainty principle. Bohr and Heisenberg put out the Copenhagen interpretation [of quantum mechanics]. So here’s Oppenheimer doing an application, but a good one because it helped introduce [the method of] quantum perturbation theory.

Q: Even some of his contemporaries said he was a dilettante. How good he was in terms of raw skill?

A: He had the skill and the brilliance. But he didn’t have the focus. He was not absolutely devoted to physics the way one of the great physicists would be. It was just one of his many passions. At the time he was doing physics, he read a lot of literature and languages. Also, in the U.S., the empirical way of approaching physics was predominant [whereas European theorists were pursuing new concepts]. So the theorists’ job was to help experimentalists understand their data. As the physics and the experiments were shifting, his interest shifted, too.

One of his main contributions had only a tenuous connection to observation, and that was black holes. That was an unfortunate situation. In 1939, he and a student, Hartland Snyder, published a paper predicting [collapsing stars could form] black holes, and the whole thing got ignored. They couldn’t pursue it because the war was breaking out. A lot of people just ignored it because it seemed impossible—how could anything collapse to an infinitely dense point?—until [physicist John] Wheeler revived the matter in the 1960s. Not until the 1990s was there any experimental evidence for black holes. I think Oppenheimer would have gotten a Nobel Prize if he was still alive at that point.

Q: How did Oppenheimer, a theorist, end up directing the Manhattan Project, a gigantic experiment?

A: It was even worse. Oppenheimer had no administrative experience. No Nobel Prize, unlike many of the people whom he would be administering. And worst of all, he had a doubtful political background, with associations with known Communists in the late 1930s. But [Lt. Gen. Leslie] Groves picked him specifically. First of all, because of Oppenheimer’s grasp of the physics and his ability to explain it to him. Also, because Oppenheimer was highly respected by the other physicists. But the main reason was Groves knew that Oppenheimer would be permanently vulnerable because of his political associations. Groves suppressed a lot of the security agents’ reports on him and said, “I want this man for the job.” So, Oppenheimer knew he was there only because he was under Groves’s protection.



https://www.science.org/content/art...er-s-celebrity-just-how-good-physicist-was-he

I wonder what difference it makes now to ask, how "good" a physicist he was?
 
I wonder what difference it makes now to ask, how "good" a physicist he was?

Probably none if you don't have the slightest interest in history or science.

This board probably has six hundred and fifty posts debating who the best quarterback ever was.
 
Probably none if you don't have the slightest interest in history or science.

This board probably has six hundred and fifty posts debating who the best quarterback ever was.

I love history and I still don't see the relevance of asking if he was a "good" physicist. It appears he was "good" enough to get done what needed to get done.

Right and that's no different than this question.
 
I wonder what difference it makes now to ask, how "good" a physicist he was?

It's a fun question given that he ended up helming the Manhattan Project which was literally filled to the brim with the best physicists of the era and possibly of many other eras. But Oppy was hardly the king of the physicists. He appears to be a master program manager, however.

It's something you see in industry all the time. Sometimes the most gifted scientists/researchers are NOT the ones who can run the program the best. Oppy was clearly no slouch in the science but he wasn't a superstar like Fermi or Bethe. But he could clearly run the program well.

I think that's why people like to armchair quarterback "who was the best scientists in the Manhattan Project" type games.
 
It's a fun question given that he ended up helming the Manhattan Project which was literally filled to the brim with the best physicists of the era and possibly of many other eras. But Oppy was hardly the king of the physicists. He appears to be a master program manager, however.

It's something you see in industry all the time. Sometimes the most gifted scientists/researchers are NOT the ones who can run the program the best. Oppy was clearly no slouch in the science but he wasn't a superstar like Fermi or Bethe. But he could clearly run the program well.

I think that's why people like to armchair quarterback "who was the best scientists in the Manhattan Project" type games.

I get it. But he was a master program manager. An auto mechanic may be able to fix any car but that doesnt necessarily mean he can keep the lights in the shop on.

Good post!
 
I love history and I still don't see the relevance of asking if he was a "good" physicist. It appears he was "good" enough to get done what needed to get done.

Right and that's no different than this question.

It's an interesting historical question for anyone genuinely interested in history.

How did a guy who wasn't considered a first tier physicist, didn't have any administrative experience, and had friends in the American communist movement get put in charge of the Manhattan project.

I didn't know he was at the forefront of predicting black holes, but his ideas were largely ignored because of circumstances outside his control
 
It's an interesting historical question for anyone genuinely interested in history.

How did a guy who wasn't considered a first tier physicist, didn't have any administrative experience, and had friends in the American communist movement get put in charge of the Manhattan project.

I didn't know he was at the forefront of predicting black holes, but his ideas were largely ignored because of circumstances outside his control

It is an interesting question but unanswerable just like the best QB ever. It's been my experience that the people with the most skill are usually the last people you want managing a project. Look at some of the best football coaches ever, if they played football at all they generally werent star players.
 
It is an interesting question but unanswerable just like the best QB ever. It's been my experience that the people with the most skill are usually the last people you want managing a project. Look at some of the best football coaches ever, if they played football at all they generally werent star players.

According to the article, it was Oppenheimer's ability to explain the physics to politicians and military leaders which set him apart.

Scientists who can't explain their science in plain English to VIP laypersons just annoy everybody.

My theory after reading the article is that what made Oppenheimer a great communicator is his was a renaissance man with widely ranging interests outside of physics, including philosophy, literature, history, linguistics. He probably could communicate like a real person, unlike some science geeks who stay stuck in the lab and the ivory tower their whole life.
 
According to the article, it was Oppenheimer's ability to explain the physics to politicians and military leaders which set him apart.

Scientists who can't explain their science in plain English to VIP laypersons just annoy everybody.

My theory after reading the article is that what made Oppenheimer a great communicator is his was a renaissance man with widely ranging interests outside of physics, including philosophy, literature, history, linguistics. He probably could and communicate like a real person, unlike some science geeks who stay stuck in the lab and the ivory tower their whole life.

All of which seems to suggest that the question of how "good" a physicist he may have been is interesting but not really relevant. It just makes for good barroom debates.
 
All of which seems to suggest that the question of how "good" a physicist he may have been is interesting but not really relevant. It just makes for good barroom debates.

Bragging rights matter to red blooded Americans! I don't like hearing he was second tier, and on mop up duty behind Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli.
 
He wasn't a great physicist but he did have the ability, which was untested at the time, to put together a great team which essentially did all the work, to keep on schedule, and ultimately succeed in their task.

Like what was said, his accomplishment wasn't actually providing the science but the administration to make the project a success, he was good at a large number of things.
 
Most of the Manhattan project wasn't done by physicists. Most of it was done by engineers and chemists. They were the ones that designed the bombs, found ways to enrich uranium, and separate plutonium from uranium fuel in breeder reactors.
 
Most of the Manhattan project wasn't done by physicists. Most of it was done by engineers and chemists. They were the ones that designed the bombs, found ways to enrich uranium, and separate plutonium from uranium fuel in breeder reactors.

Correct.

The physicist essentially lays out the concept after working out the science then relies on others with their expertise to make it happen.
 
Correct.

The physicist essentially lays out the concept after working out the science then relies on others with their expertise to make it happen.

Physicists worked out the math and science behind fission and calculated critical mass, that sort of thing. Actually turning that into a bomb was the job of engineers and chemists.
 
Oh, another little gem you didn't likely know...

The Manhattan Project was not the most expensive or extensive project by the US during or shortly after WW 2, not by a long shot.
 
Most of the Manhattan project wasn't done by physicists. Most of it was done by engineers and chemists. They were the ones that designed the bombs, found ways to enrich uranium, and separate plutonium from uranium fuel in breeder reactors.

Makes sense and seems self evident. The CERN super collider was built by thousands of engineers, electricians, and construction workers to build something that would test the ideas of physicists.
 
I wonder what difference it makes now to ask, how "good" a physicist he was?

It's a matter of both historical perspective and the fact there's a movie out about him.

People who get their history from movies usually are often Trumpers. LOL

It's good to have a more factual basis to understand how we got from there to here. :)
 
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