How good a physicist was Oppenheimer?

Bragging rights matter to red blooded Americans! I don't like hearing he was second tier, and on mop up duty behind Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli.

History isn't always just or kind. Think Newton and Leibniz or Edison and Tesla.

One reason top valor medal recipients are so humble is that they realize they didn't do it alone or that they were the only ones. There's a lot of unsung heroes in any major human effort. Terry rightfully mentioned all the chemists and engineers who were crucial to developing atomic weapons. It's like people know the names of quarterbacks and wide receivers but not the other 9 team members.
 
History isn't always just or kind. Think Newton and Leibniz or Edison and Tesla.

One reason top valor medal recipients are so humble is that they realize they didn't do it alone or that they were the only ones. There's a lot of unsung heroes in any major human effort. Terry rightfully mentioned all the chemists and engineers who were crucial to developing atomic weapons. It's like people know the names of quarterbacks and wide receivers but not the other 9 team members.

The interesting thing I learned about Oppenheimer is that he wasn't obsessed with physics and did not devote the focus of his life to it. He was a renaissance man with widely ranging interests in philosophy, linguistics, history, religion. The historian of science quoted in the article seemed to think this lack of focus and ambition on physics contributed to keeping him out of top tier of European physicists
 
The interesting thing I learned about Oppenheimer is that he wasn't obsessed with physics and did not devote the focus of his life to it. He was a renaissance man with widely ranging interests in philosophy, linguistics, history, religion. The historian of science quoted in the article seemed to think this lack of focus and ambition on physics contributed to keeping him out of top tier of European physicists

Agreed Oppie was more "well-rounded" than most top physicists. Notice he and Teller, who was much more "focused", were at odds when it came to proliferation of nuclear weapons. Oppie got into hot water, and his communist background was used against him, when he spoke against nukes.

https://gizmodo.com/the-heartbreaking-feud-between-edward-teller-and-j-robe-1505532276
Either Teller was making the blandest possible accusation of collaboration with foreign communists, or he was explaining, in the most suspicious possible way, that Oppenheimer and he disagreed on matters of military strategy. In the end though, he testified that he believed that Oppenheimer should not be given security clearance.
 
Makes sense and seems self evident. The CERN super collider was built by thousands of engineers, electricians, and construction workers to build something that would test the ideas of physicists.

Not a good analogy. Manhattan had one purpose: Construct a working nuclear weapon. It wasn't a theoretical experiment that was ongoing. The physics of how it would work was worked out fairly early in the program. After that, it was all an engineering and chemistry problem.
 
Not a good analogy. Manhattan had one purpose: Construct a working nuclear weapon. It wasn't a theoretical experiment that was ongoing. The physics of how it would work was worked out fairly early in the program. After that, it was all an engineering and chemistry problem.

The Large Hadron Collider was built for a very specific purpose, the general contours of the standard model of particle physics were generally understood by the 1970s and 80s.
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I think the distinction between a pure research project and an applied application at this scale is not sustantially important. The LHC to thousands of engineers, electricians, and contractors to build.
 
The Large Hadron Collider was built for a very specific purpose, the general contours of the standard model of particle physics were generally understood by the 1970s and 80s.
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I think the distinction between a pure research project and an applied application at this scale is not sustantially important. The LHC to thousands of engineers, electricians, and contractors to build.

Unfortunately, in America, research is being replaced by the goal to maximize profits. It's one reason why the Apollo program was killed. The rest of the world is passing us by as American corporations tally up their profits.
 
Unfortunately, in America, research is being replaced by the goal to maximize profits. It's one reason why the Apollo program was killed. The rest of the world is passing us by as American corporations tally up their profits.
I personally don't have any good knowledge or intelligent insights on how the state of American science stacks up against China and Europe. It seems like we are still highly competitive.

To a large extent, government funding of core scientific research is predicated on how useful to society it is going to be. During the Cold War, particle physics was the Queen of the sciences as far as funding was concerned. These days it's genetics. Paleoanthropology has to always scrounge the bottom of the barrel.
 
I personally don't have any good knowledge or intelligent insights on how the state of American science stacks up against China and Europe. It seems like we are still highly competitive.

To a large extent, government funding of core scientific research is predicated on how useful to society it is going to be. During the Cold War, particle physics was the Queen of the sciences as far as funding was concerned. These days it's genetics. Paleoanthropology has to always scrounge the bottom of the barrel.

Just read they are shutting down the Joides Resolution. That's a blow to great basic science.

https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=306986&org=OCE
 
Your example is anecdotal, and your article says that instead of NSF spending it's money to maintain a 50 year old ship, they are redirecting that money into development of next generation ocean drilling technologies.

Wow. Can't even get a single piece of interesting news past you without a slap.

I am fascinated by the Joides Resolution mainly because my wife worked on the funding part of the program. It actually came as a shock to the larger oceanographic community and it's causing a bit of a stir.

I figured an earth science topic might be interesting given your knowledge of sed/strat as discussed earlier.
 
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To learn about Oppenheimer the scientist, Science spoke with David C. Cassidy, a physicist and historian emeritus at Hofstra University.

Q: Oppenheimer’s name appears in the early applications of quantum mechanics and the theory of black holes. How good a physicist was he?

A: Well, he was no Einstein. And he’s not even up to the level of Heisenberg, Pauli, Schrödinger, Dirac, the leaders of the quantum revolution of the 1920s. One of the reasons for this was his birth date. He was born in 1904, so he was 3 years younger than Heisenberg, 4 years younger than Pauli. Those few years were enough to place him in the second wave of the quantum revolution and behind the main wave of discovery, in what [philosopher of science] Thomas Kuhn called the “mopping-up operation,” applications of the new theory.

Q: He’s known for the Born-Oppenheimer approximation, which helped extend quantum mechanics from atoms to molecules.

A: That was one of his most cited papers. He wrote that in 1927 while he was in Göttingen [Germany, doing his doctoral work with Max Born]. That same year, Heisenberg presented the uncertainty principle. Bohr and Heisenberg put out the Copenhagen interpretation [of quantum mechanics]. So here’s Oppenheimer doing an application, but a good one because it helped introduce [the method of] quantum perturbation theory.

Q: Even some of his contemporaries said he was a dilettante. How good he was in terms of raw skill?

A: He had the skill and the brilliance. But he didn’t have the focus. He was not absolutely devoted to physics the way one of the great physicists would be. It was just one of his many passions. At the time he was doing physics, he read a lot of literature and languages. Also, in the U.S., the empirical way of approaching physics was predominant [whereas European theorists were pursuing new concepts]. So the theorists’ job was to help experimentalists understand their data. As the physics and the experiments were shifting, his interest shifted, too.

One of his main contributions had only a tenuous connection to observation, and that was black holes. That was an unfortunate situation. In 1939, he and a student, Hartland Snyder, published a paper predicting [collapsing stars could form] black holes, and the whole thing got ignored. They couldn’t pursue it because the war was breaking out. A lot of people just ignored it because it seemed impossible—how could anything collapse to an infinitely dense point?—until [physicist John] Wheeler revived the matter in the 1960s. Not until the 1990s was there any experimental evidence for black holes. I think Oppenheimer would have gotten a Nobel Prize if he was still alive at that point.

Q: How did Oppenheimer, a theorist, end up directing the Manhattan Project, a gigantic experiment?

A: It was even worse. Oppenheimer had no administrative experience. No Nobel Prize, unlike many of the people whom he would be administering. And worst of all, he had a doubtful political background, with associations with known Communists in the late 1930s. But [Lt. Gen. Leslie] Groves picked him specifically. First of all, because of Oppenheimer’s grasp of the physics and his ability to explain it to him. Also, because Oppenheimer was highly respected by the other physicists. But the main reason was Groves knew that Oppenheimer would be permanently vulnerable because of his political associations. Groves suppressed a lot of the security agents’ reports on him and said, “I want this man for the job.” So, Oppenheimer knew he was there only because he was under Groves’s protection.



https://www.science.org/content/art...er-s-celebrity-just-how-good-physicist-was-he

I never met the gentleman, and would have not been qualified to judge his capabilities even if I had.

I don't see how his dealings with communists was even a consideration, however,
as we were allies with the communists at that time.
 
I never met the gentleman, and would have not been qualified to judge his capabilities even if I had.

I don't see how his dealings with communists was even a consideration, however,
as we were allies with the communists at that time.

That's actually one of the most interesting aspects to the Oppenheimer Affair. Long before WWII America had a bad relationship with Communists so it is no surprise that the people of the time would have a conflicted view of the topic.

And Russia was not always our ally, they did sign a non-aggression pact with Hitler in hopes of appeasement but when that fell apart it drove the Russians to our side. I'm not surprised Truman and FDR before him didn't really keep Uncle Joe in the know. So obviously there was going to be some spying going on and after Joe got his nuke everyone pitched a fit and started looking for people to blame and using the old standards of anti-commie rhetoric it was not hard for Strauss et al. to parlay that into usable political capital which they utilized to destroy Oppenheimer.

And it lined up perfectly with a resurgence in anti-soviet sentiment as the 1950's started up.
 
I never met the gentleman, and would have not been qualified to judge his capabilities even if I had.

I don't see how his dealings with communists was even a consideration, however,
as we were allies with the communists at that time.

We were strictly allies of convenience with the USSR, and even back then we didn't want the Soviets to have access to our military secrets.

On the other hand, the red scare paranoia was out of hand, and the fact Oppenheimer had some friends in the American communist movement should not have automatically led to a conclusion he wasn't loyal to America
 
I never met the gentleman, and would have not been qualified to judge his capabilities even if I had.

I don't see how his dealings with communists was even a consideration, however,
as we were allies with the communists at that time.

At my old alma mater they brought it Edvard Teller to speak in the 90's. I really wanted to go see him as I was in the process of reading Richard Rhodes' amazing book "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" (highly recommend). But I missed him. It would have been interesting. Although I, like so many others, were soured on him due to his actions during the Oppenheimer affair, but Teller really wanted a thermonuclear weapon and moving folks like Oppenheimer out of the way certainly removed at least one major voice against its development.
 
And it lined up perfectly with a resurgence in anti-soviet sentiment as the 1950's started up.

The 1950s are presented so idyllically as we look back at them,
and there were ways in which they actually were.

I grew up in them.

We also had a polio epidemic, blacklisting, the House Un-American Activities Committee, McCarthyism, and Jim Crow which was in full force,
not to mention the textile industry moving to southern "right-to-work" states to avoid the unions.

An Italian kid
in what was referred to as Boston's safest neighborhood
was paying more attention to nineteen foot cars with tail fins and rock and roll and the 1950s sports and TV and film idols
than to politics, but as the news droned on in the background,
it nonetheless all sank in.
 
Unfortunately, in America, research is being replaced by the goal to maximize profits. It's one reason why the Apollo program was killed. The rest of the world is passing us by as American corporations tally up their profits.

The real killer of innovation isn't maximizing profits, but rather regulation. Apollo couldn't be done today because it wasn't 100%, or nearly so, safe. NASA will waste decades perfecting old technology to a point where it is 100% safe due to regulations--and the lawyers that go with that--rather than take risks and push the envelope of technology. The US military has lawyers reviewing battleplans now for their legality and meeting of regulations.

The car and aircraft industries are so heavily regulated that true innovation is no longer possible.
 
Spoken like someone who has never set foot in an R&D facility.

Oh, I've been in lots of them. It's one thing to innovate something in a lab. It's totally another to take it from some research project to a viable product in production. Look at Tesla. In order to reach a state where they can sell a mass production car, they spent tens of billions and nearly two decades getting to that point in large part because of government regulations. It was easy enough for them to build a few prototypes, but building a production car proved a totally different animal.
 
Oh, I've been in lots of them. It's one thing to innovate something in a lab. It's totally another to take it from some research project to a viable product in production. Look at Tesla. In order to reach a state where they can sell a mass production car, they spent tens of billions and nearly two decades getting to that point in large part because of government regulations. It was easy enough for them to build a few prototypes, but building a production car proved a totally different animal.

Yeah, you don't know how this game operates, clearly.
 
Wow. Can't even get a single piece of interesting news past you without a slap.

I am fascinated by the Joides Resolution mainly because my wife worked on the funding part of the program. It actually came as a shock to the larger oceanographic community and it's causing a bit of a stir.

I figured an earth science topic might be interesting given your knowledge of sed/strat as discussed earlier.

I wrote I didn't think USA was a declining science power.
You responded that I should look at this ship story because it was a harbinger of a huge blow to American science.

If you want to believe the retirement of a 50 year old boat is proof of American decline in science, that's up to you.

I do not have the knowledge to say how US science funding and performance compares to other developed nations, except to say my intuition is that USA remains very competitive.
 
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