Hugo Chavez: Glaring example of Socialist FAIL!

No, under your definition anyone who does not support unrestrained capitalism would be communist. The fact is that socialism can and often does mean regulating the means of production. You are perhaps describing socialism in marxist theory where it is a transitional phase, and not the ends itself. I am not really sure what the hell you are describing to be honest.

As I stated, I am for a mixed economy. I find unrestrained capitalism to be immoral period. I am not at war with capitalism, I simply do not support unrestrained capitalism and don't really know any moral person can.

How quaint that Snarla finds something that has never existed to be immoral. Even more entertaining is this Godless twit has the ovaries to deign that which is immoral.

What Snarla abhors is freedom to make individual choices.

If given a choice Americans would buy big behemoths that get poor gas mileage. But Statists like Snarla don't like that. So they impose "rules" for the individuals own good of course.

If given a choice Americans would buy incandescent lightbulbs. Hogwash say Statists like Snarla. Don't the unwashed masses know that lightbulbs made with mercury that are 100 times more expensive are better for us? We need to pass a law

And on and on it goes until such a tangled web is woven over time nobody can even begin to think about where to start unraveling it.

The current budget battles are representative of just how intertwined the government is in our lives that cutting just 2% illicits howls of protest about how unjust and unfair it will be if the government doesn't spend that money
 
Albert Einstein
Ernest Hemingway
Victor Hugo
George Orwell
Nelson Mandela
Helen Keller
Lawrence O'Donnell
Katharine Hepburn
Angela Davis
Lloyd Bridges
Harry Belafonte
Margaret Sanger
Carl Sandburg
W.E.B. Dubois
Noam Chomsky
Kurt Vonnegut
Upton Sinclair
Paul Robeson
Howard Zinn
Jack London
Edward Asner
Woody Guthrie
Lewis Black
Cornel West

.. to name a few socialists.

Ironically all of them are millionaires who made their fortunes under the same system they decry.

Ain't irony a bitch?
 
Not a billion dollars. Nowhere close. But you are comparing an evil greedy "capitalist" system to the glorious Socialist system which promises wealth equality. I imagine the people of Venezuela ARE better off than before Chavez, he was a billionaire, so that means the average Joe in Venezuela must also be a billionaire, right? I mean, I am sure there is no disparity between rich and poor, not under the wonderful Socialist plan, that can't happen. Yeah, those folks must be doing very well.

Your ignorance of socialism is astounding given that humans have invented books. You appear to have never read one on the subject.

No, socialism does not mean nor imply that everybody is the same or acquires the same.

But given that fact does not sit well with meme .. you can believe whatever ignorance makes you feel special.
 
Your ignorance of socialism is astounding given that humans have invented books. You appear to have never read one on the subject.

No, socialism does not mean nor imply that everybody is the same or acquires the same.

But given that fact does not sit well with meme .. you can believe whatever ignorance makes you feel special.

He and Bravo are both hilarious on this.
 
Why Socialism?
Albert Einstein

excerpts --

"Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society. It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept “society” means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is “society” which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees. However, while the whole life process of ants and bees is fixed down to the smallest detail by rigid, hereditary instincts, the social pattern and interrelationships of human beings are very variable and susceptible to change. Memory, the capacity to make new combinations, the gift of oral communication have made possible developments among human being which are not dictated by biological necessities. Such developments manifest themselves in traditions, institutions, and organizations; in literature; in scientific and engineering accomplishments; in works of art. This explains how it happens that, in a certain sense, man can influence his life through his own conduct, and that in this process conscious thinking and wanting can play a part.

---

I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

For the sake of simplicity, in the discussion that follows I shall call “workers” all those who do not share in the ownership of the means of production—although this does not quite correspond to the customary use of the term. The owner of the means of production is in a position to purchase the labor power of the worker. By using the means of production, the worker produces new goods which become the property of the capitalist. The essential point about this process is the relation between what the worker produces and what he is paid, both measured in terms of real value. Insofar as the labor contract is “free,” what the worker receives is determined not by the real value of the goods he produces, but by his minimum needs and by the capitalists’ requirements for labor power in relation to the number of workers competing for jobs. It is important to understand that even in theory the payment of the worker is not determined by the value of his product.

Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

---

Production is carried on for profit, not for use. There is no provision that all those able and willing to work will always be in a position to find employment; an “army of unemployed” almost always exists. The worker is constantly in fear of losing his job. Since unemployed and poorly paid workers do not provide a profitable market, the production of consumers’ goods is restricted, and great hardship is the consequence. Technological progress frequently results in more unemployment rather than in an easing of the burden of work for all. The profit motive, in conjunction with competition among capitalists, is responsible for an instability in the accumulation and utilization of capital which leads to increasingly severe depressions. Unlimited competition leads to a huge waste of labor, and to that crippling of the social consciousness of individuals which I mentioned before.

This crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for his future career.

more
http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism
 
I really cannot see any circumstances where the US would implement wholesale nationalisation and the state would own the means of production. Apart from anything else most of the means of production resides with the Chinese and they don't want to give it back.
 
I really cannot see any circumstances where the US would implement wholesale nationalisation and the state would own the means of production. Apart from anything else most of the means of production resides with the Chinese and they don't want to give it back.

I agree what we have tilted toward is more akin to left wing fascism like the Nazis and Mussoulini.
 
Just as a matter of interest, the Koch Brothers net worth is approx 31 billion dollars. The Chavez family are accused of having 2 billion.
How have the Koch Brothers improved the lot of poor Americans? How much of their fortune is being invested in the education of young Americans, in the pensions of aging Americans. How much tax are they paying to support the infrastructure that there companies take advantage of? How about Bush baby? What good did he ever do for the poor and disadvantaged? Did he never lie?
Glass houses, methinks.

Were the Koch Brothers elected to lead the US?
I wasn't aware that Bush had been chosen to run the US as a socialist country; but then, Chavez was touted as doing so.
 
You have no clue of what socialism is .. and the US also isn't promoting the idea that it's corporate-owned and operated .. but it undeniably is.

You may believe it is; but that doesn't make it the truth.
So, now that everyone in Venezuela has a billion dollars; how's that working out?
 
What the hell is unrestrained capitalism and where has it ever existed in reality. Not your made up reality, but reality.

Markets restrain capitalism. Free people making individual decisions restrains capitalism.

Government restrains capitalism.
 
So you are claiming that the post-gulf war no-fly zones were instituted by Bill Clinton, is that correct?

I guess Bravo figured out he stepped in it here alright.

That's right Bravo, the answer to that is; no.


OMG....you caught me such a big one whopper.....I'm so ashamed..........................not

The Iraqi no-fly zones were a set of two separate no-fly zones (NFZs), and were proclaimed by the United States, United Kingdom, and France after the Gulf War of 1991 to protect the Kurds in northern Iraq and Shiite Muslims in the south.
The sanctions against Iraq began four days after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, in 1990

........thats makes a real difference ?....again, not.

Both the sanctions were in force for the full terms of the Clinton Administration....the NFZ's for 6 or his 8 years....
YOU brought up the suffering caused by sanctions and my point was that most of that was during the Clinton terms.....

I guess during what I think is 'civil discourse' with you guys I sometimes let my guard down and get careless....I should know by now that any kind of mistake, no matter how inconsequential to the topic will be pounced on if given the opportunity....so on a grade of 1 to 10, I'll give you a 3 for catching that little "faux pas".

Estimates of excess deaths during the sanctions?...It varies....

UNICEF: 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] children under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago."
U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq Denis Halliday: "Two hundred thirty-nine thousand children 5 years old and under" as of 1998.
"probably ... 170,000 children", Project on Defense Alternatives, "The Wages of War", 20 October 2003
350,000 excess deaths among children "even using conservative estimates", Slate Explainer, "Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?", 9. October 2001.

You can believe all of them or none of them, at your pleasure.
 
OMG....you caught me such a big one whopper.....I'm so ashamed..........................not

The Iraqi no-fly zones were a set of two separate no-fly zones (NFZs), and were proclaimed by the United States, United Kingdom, and France after the Gulf War of 1991 to protect the Kurds in northern Iraq and Shiite Muslims in the south.
The sanctions against Iraq began four days after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, in 1990

........thats makes a real difference ?....again, not.

Both the sanctions were in force for the full terms of the Clinton Administration....the NFZ's for 6 or his 8 years....
YOU brought up the suffering caused by sanctions and my point was that most of that was during the Clinton terms.....

I guess during what I think is 'civil discourse' with you guys I sometimes let my guard down and get careless....I should know by now that any kind of mistake, no matter how inconsequential to the topic will be pounced on if given the opportunity....so on a grade of 1 to 10, I'll give you a 3 for catching that little "faux pas".

Estimates of excess deaths during the sanctions?...It varies....

UNICEF: 500,000 children (including sanctions, collateral effects of war). "[As of 1999] children under 5 years of age are dying at more than twice the rate they were ten years ago."
U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq Denis Halliday: "Two hundred thirty-nine thousand children 5 years old and under" as of 1998.
"probably ... 170,000 children", Project on Defense Alternatives, "The Wages of War", 20 October 2003
350,000 excess deaths among children "even using conservative estimates", Slate Explainer, "Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?", 9. October 2001.

You can believe all of them or none of them, at your pleasure.

No your point was : The no-fly zones, bombings, and sanctions, that you blame for so much suffering and death, came with the Clinton presidency..

They did not come with the Clinton Presidency. If you do not grasp that US foreign policy is bi partisan and that it endures no matter who is President, then you're a great target for manufactured, partisan "outrage".

Yes I accept the Unicef number and sadly sat through a documentary about it. I wish more Americans, or maybe any Americans, gave a crap. Most don't know about it, and of those who are aware, most are like you...caring only about which party they can blame.
 
No your point was : The no-fly zones, bombings, and sanctions, that you blame for so much suffering and death, came with the Clinton presidency..

They did not come with the Clinton Presidency. If you do not grasp that US foreign policy is bi partisan and that it endures no matter who is President, then you're a great target for manufactured, partisan "outrage".

Yes I accept the Unicef number and sadly sat through a documentary about it. I wish more Americans, or maybe any Americans, gave a crap. Most don't know about it, and of those who are aware, most are like you...caring only about which party they can blame.


I didn't bring up the no fly zones or the sanctions....so they were NOT MY point.....you ain't gonna start stetching the truth are you ?

This is a joke....
If I do not grasp that US foreign policy is bi partisan and that it endures no matter who is President ?

Maybe next time the Iraq War comes up and the Iraq War Resolution and "Thingy1 the Pinhead Supreme" is posting, you might want to
mention to him that US foreign policy is bi partisan......especially when the Pres. asks Congress for permission and gets a bill passed with a bi-partisan vote.....

unlike what Obama pulled with Libya....

And foreign policy changes almost continually under each and every President....and many times is not bi-partisan at all.....
No bi-partisan committee or congressional group was controlling Hillarys travels as Sec. of St. nor controlled what she could or could not say to any
of the foreign leaders she met with, she only answered to Obama and no one else.....and we don't know what was said in our name,....so don't get too carried away with this
notion that US foreign policy is bi partisan....

Obama foreign policy is no different than what Bush established in the past...other than that, its a joke.
the same can be said for Obama's domestic policy for the most part.

So for the record....the NFZ's and sanctions were started under Bush 1....but for most of the years they existed, Clinton was pres.....
If that makes some kind of important difference to you....


And I have more contempt for US presidents that watched Saddam murder and rape and gas his own citizens for decades and didn't lift a finger to
help them.....Hooray for Bush 1 and Bush 2.....and even Clinton gets a pat on the head for at least heated rhetoric, if for nothing else.
 
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Iraq will always be Bush's war, period. Congress passed a resolution authorizing the use of force if necessary. Without Bush's decision, absolutely nothing happens. There is nothing about that resolution that forced his hand, or that mandated action.

The resolution ALLOWED him to use force, but neither recommended it or compelled it. As Bush has always said, he was the decider. He made the decision, and it was not a wise one.
 
Thats a joke....
If I do not grasp that US foreign policy is bi partisan and that it endures no matter who is President ?

Maybe next time the Iraq War comes up and the Iraq War Resolution and "Thingy1 the Pinhead Supreme" is posting, you might want to
mention to him that US foreign policy is bi partisan......especially when the Pres. asks Congress for permission and gets a bill passed with a bi-partisan vote.....
....


Nah, I don't like to argue with Onceler.
 
Iraq will always be Bush's war, period. Congress passed a resolution authorizing the use of force if necessary. Without Bush's decision, absolutely nothing happens. There is nothing about that resolution that forced his hand, or that mandated action.

The resolution ALLOWED him to use force, but neither recommended it or compelled it. As Bush has always said, he was the decider. He made the decision, and it was not a wise one.

Great post Onceler.
 
Great post Onceler.

The rewrite of history on Iraq is crazy stuff. I remember 2002 & 2003. I remember being called a traitor for opposing the war, and a terrorist sympathizer. I remember Republicans cackling in their giddy Republican way when Saddam's statue fell and a codpiece-enhanced GW made his "Mission Accomplished" speech, and being ridiculed because Democrats were on the "wrong side of history" w/ Iraq.

Now, there just isn't enough credit to go around. I have heard bravo say that Clinton actually started the war (when he's not saying that it only lasted 3 weeks), and that all Bush did was finish it, and only when Congressional Democrats forced him to. Crazy stuff.
 
Gradates from higher education under Chavez

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Venezuelans Receiving Pensions

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Child Malnutrition- Age 5 and Under

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Education: Net Enrollment

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And let's not forget that the man was legitimately re-elected!

Bottom line: willfully ignorant idealogues like Dixie just lap up what the oligarchy that ruled Venezuela previously feeds them. Like it or not, Venezuela was the ONLY oil company that lowered it's rates for poor Americans who needed heating oil!

the only FAIL here is the continued bullhorn of the likes of Dixie!
 
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