I Support Our Troops And I Honor Their Service!

Prakosh

Senior Member
I support our troops, I honor their service, and that is why I don’t want any more of them to die. I'm deeply saddened with every war death on either side. I lost friends, some of the best friends I had in my life, in Vietnam, both American military and Vietnamese civilians. I learned things from that experience that one would be better off never knowing. One was the inevitable transience of life and the stark and tragic realization that anyone can be struck down at any time. The other was the capacity of our sworn leaders to turn to the cameras and with a smile, a grimace, or a smirk to lie prolifically. I learned that the lives of others are generally quite meaningless to people in power. That far too often, in fact, in nearly every instance, wars are not fought for anything viable, or worthwhile; that the reasons for war are more often rhetorical than actual. That those reasons are nearly always clothed in the rhetoric of "freedom" and "democracy" and other high sounding notions or concepts that have little or nothing to do with the real reasons for wars, the egos of people in positions of power and the dreams and greediness of people who have their minds on their wallets or their eye on "their place in history." Who after all could generate sympathy or support for the countless deaths of American citizens by claiming to fight for tyranny, despotism, and the ruthless murder of untold thousands in the pursuit of economic imperialism?

Millions of Vietnamese, North and South, Laotians, and Cambodian civilians lost their lives during the Vietnam War, and for what? All during that war we heard over and over and over again how if Vietnam fell the rest of the world would go Communist. The virulent war-mongers of that period pointed to the statements and writings of Communists all over the world who claimed unabashedly that they were set on world domination and that they would bury the United States. None of that happened. Now the war-mongering fools of today are pointing to the statements of angry and foolhardy Islamic radicals who are supposedly proclaiming a New Caliphate which will conquer the world and rule it with the iron fist of Islamic law. Of course these threats are more reminiscent of the 7 teenagers in Florida who were going to take over the United States with no plan, no weapons, no money, and no shoes, than a threat we need concern ourselves with too seriously. But the paranoid need little more than a book, a treatise or a rambling and incoherent statement from a madman to run screaming through the streets in the fashion made famous in 1950s horror movies, themselves subversive responses to the hyperbolic right wing reaction to the so-called and overly-hyped "Soviet threat."

AMC is showing Army films all weekend. Everything from World War II--Tora Tora Tora, Patton, etc--to Vietnam's, Green Berets! These offerings are all designed to generate support for war and to celebrate the heroism of our fighting men. Present by their absence are all those great anti-war films that have a far less celebratory tone. Ironically, it’s not PC to show anti-war films on Veteran’s Day. But I can't celebrate war. As I do every Veteran's Day now I will watch the Vietnam War documentary, Hearts and Minds--it more accurately reflects how I feel about war--and I will cry for all those senseless murders and killings and deaths and wonder why I was spared while people with so much more to offer the world were shot down in their prime for nothing. And like I have so many times, I will hope for some kind of understanding, some kind of catharsis, some kind of relief, some kind of peace, some kind of closure, but I already know none of this will be forthcoming. Not today; not ever. There is no coherency to insanity, no logical reasons for stupidity, no relief from the empathetic pain for those others less fortunate now gone to dust, and no redemption for those who blindly supported the leaders who drove our troops to their deaths. We have to bring the troops in Iraq home now, and Bush should apologize to each and every one of them and their families for all the asinine and ignorant assumptions and decisions that he has made that resulted in so many senseless and useless deaths and so many life-altering injuries--but he won't. He's not human enough to do the right thing. He'll place some worthless wreath on the grave of some unknown soldier (because whether we survive or die we all return to obscurity; the survivors to ultimately live mostly alone with whatever war has wrought), and he'll speak some mindless drivel about how much he appreciates the service and how important it is that we continue the fight for "freedom and democracy" over there, while his every initiative is chipping away continuously at "freedom and democracy" over here. He'll also go on about how more people have to die so that the previous deaths will not have been in vain and tell us that we are on the cusp of victory and that the enemy will soon be vanquished. What hubris, what blindness, what ignorance, what arrogance. Face it, 54,000+ in Vietnam dead--In Vain. Nearly 3,000 dead in Iraq; and who knows how many of the 20,000+ seriously injured will wish eventually they had died--In Vain for Vanity Only.

Soon we will begin hearing, if we haven't already, how we must save face by making sure that we have done what we set out to do--whatever that might have been. However, besides giving Bush a war to fight so that he could be a war-time President, strut around like Patton and pretend he was somebody after leaving his own post and bailing on the military rather than submit to a drug test, this war has been a complete and senseless waste of human life, human potential, national wealth and American prestige. Bush lied to create a reason for war, sent troops into combat without the proper equipment, forced many of their families onto welfare, refused to raise their pay to a living wage, and is abandoning them now that they are injured seriously for the remainder of their lives. I don't care how many Rumsfelds get fired, this is Bush's war based on Bush's lies. Support the Troops on this Veteran's Day. Sit down right now and write your duly elected Representatives in Congress (both in the House and the Senate) a letter in support of our troops calling for an end to the Iraq War, the withdrawal of our troops and the impeachment of George W. Bush.

Support Our Troops; Honor Their Service; Impeach Bush NOW!
 
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If impeaching Bush would bring back those who've died in war, I would support it. If impeaching Bush would mean no one died in war, I would support it. If ending the Iraq war, and turning it into a disgraceful episode like Vietnam, would make the deaths of our fallen heroes more noble, I would support that as well.

I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but really, there are not any mean old republicans who just want soldiers to die, and don't care. We all regret people having to die in a war, we all hope that our loved ones will return safely, and we all wish there were another way to resolve the troubles in the world, other than to wage wars. The Left and Right have completely different viewpoints on the Iraq war, and this will never change. Primarily because Liberals don't understand or comprehend warfare, and are stuck in a fantasy world, where war is not ever an option. Regardless of emotional sentiments, no one desires to see soldiers die in war.

One thing I have to consider regarding Iraq, regardless of why we went, regardless of how dumb it may or may not have been, and regardless of the losses we've encountered thus far, leaving Iraq as we left Vietnam, is not the right thing to do, and it is not going to honor those who gave their lives for this cause. We, as Americans, owe it to these fallen heroes, to at least attempt to achieve the goals and objectives they fought for. To abandon those goals and objectives, is equivalent to spitting on the lives lost, and rendering them meaningless. I'm not ready to sign on to that, sorry.
 
Hmm, what grounds would this impeachment be on? Sorry, have'nt read anything regarding this but would like to know how much of a reach we are talking about.
 
Now the war-mongering fools of today are pointing to the statements of angry and foolhardy Islamic radicals who are supposedly proclaiming a New Caliphate which will conquer the world and rule it with the iron fist of Islamic law.

No one is pointing to statements, if it were only mere statements of angry and foolhardy Islamics, there wouldn't be a giant hole in Manhattan, and 3,000 American civilians memorialized for eternity with the date of 9/11.

There has been no supposition about a Caliphate, this is clearly indicated in the edicts, fatwa's, and calls to jihad, of the radical Islamics. It's not something that has been fabricated, it's not a speculative opinion of what they want, it is a clear and well-documented statement of mission by our sworn enemies. I will be happy to give you links to the actual text they have published, regarding their desires for a universal Caliphate to rule the world. This is not pretend, this is not made up, this is real and it's dangerous to the security and sovereignty of America, as well as our allies abroad.

You can do like Neville Chamberlain did in WWII, and completely stick your head in the sand... say hello to Dan Rather for me! These people are radical Islamic fundamentalists, who have adopted a fascist attitude and strategy of terror, to implement a perverted and twisted religious agenda. They don't intend to stop, they are not interested in negotiation, in fact, they see negotiators as weak people, and they are vowed to exploit them for the fools they are.

With Communism, we faced a political-based governing ideology. A lot of people believe in Socialism and Communism, just look at the Democrat Party! The political and governmental aspects of Communism, are not the same as a radical and global religious fanatical movement. Policy can be nuanced, political views can be moderated, communist and socialist ideology can be infiltrated into the system without jihad and a Caliphate. What we face in the current Islamofascist enemy, is a religiously-based belief, deeply-rooted in the Muslim cultural world of the middle east. These people don't moderate, it is a matter of their faith, and they are not going to compromise as one would compromise a political principle. This is where your logic fails, in assuming they are the same, when they are completely different.
 
Hmm, what grounds would this impeachment be on? Sorry, have'nt read anything regarding this but would like to know how much of a reach we are talking about.

Sorry, maybe I'll write something on that later. If your question is motivated by serious curiosity and not just rhetorical, I think that there are plenty of websites that have articulated Bush's crimes to date. Simply go to Google and type in Impeach Bush, I'm sure you'll find an enormous amount of information. There are even several books available that detail the various grounds for his impeachment.

Trust me, from the Downing Street Memo to today; impeachment is not an overreach.
 
Trust me, from the Downing Street Memo to today; impeachment is not an overreach.

Hmm... Downing Street Memo? I didn't realize unconfirmed foreign documents were admissible in an impeachment hearing, but that's fine, it means that Bush can use the phone call from Putin, warning of an impending attack from Saddam with nuclear weapons. Hey, whatever rules we play by here, it's going to be consistent for both sides, so don't think an impeachment is going to roll like the typical liberal news cycle.
 
Trust me, from the Downing Street Memo to today; impeachment is not an overreach.

Hmm... Downing Street Memo? I didn't realize unconfirmed foreign documents were admissible in an impeachment hearing, but that's fine, it means that Bush can use the phone call from Putin, warning of an impending attack from Saddam with nuclear weapons. Hey, whatever rules we play by here, it's going to be consistent for both sides, so don't think an impeachment is going to roll like the typical liberal news cycle.

A secret document (foreign or otherwise) which might easily be confirmed vs. hearsay is now termed "consistent for both sides" by BILLO the legal know-it-all. LOL!!!
 
Hmm, what grounds would this impeachment be on? Sorry, have'nt read anything regarding this but would like to know how much of a reach we are talking about.
I believe that the phrase you're looking for is "high crimes and misdemeanors."

If it could be domonstrated that the president -- any president -- lied to Congress and the people, that would do it. Especially if that misprision was committed in order to goad the nation into a war of conquest.
 
I believe that the phrase you're looking for is "high crimes and misdemeanors."

If it could be domonstrated that the president -- any president -- lied to Congress and the people, that would do it. Especially if that misprision was committed in order to goad the nation into a war of conquest.

BINGO! :cof1:
 
"We, as Americans, owe it to these fallen heroes, to at least attempt to achieve the goals and objectives they fought for."

The goal of the Iraq War was to disarm Saddam Hussein of WMD's.

Mission Accomplished, as they say.
 
"We, as Americans, owe it to these fallen heroes, to at least attempt to achieve the goals and objectives they fought for."

The goal of the Iraq War was to disarm Saddam Hussein of WMD's.

Mission Accomplished, as they say.
I seem to remember something about "regime change" spoken of...

That would imply, if not directly state, that one of the goals would including some sort of "new" regime to replace the other. Othewise "change" would not work.

Oversimplifying is fun, but not usually very accurate.
 
The regime has been changed as well, with 300,000 troops to back it up.

Nicely done. Now bring 'em home.
Still oversimplifying. What kind of success could we expect from them if we left immediately? How likely would they be to basically become Iran II, directly funding terrorism from the State? Would it be wise?
 
Still oversimplifying. What kind of success could we expect from them if we left immediately? How likely would they be to basically become Iran II, directly funding terrorism from the State? Would it be wise?

Were you as vigilant about saying those who initially estimated this war at 6 months & $50 billion as "oversimplifying?"

What we have essentially done is put ourselves in the middle of something akin to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. At a certain point, we have to consider that we could easily be having the same discussion about whether or not to withdraw in 10 years, or 20. Is there truly a point at which we can feel comfortable leaving & confident that the Iraqi's can defend themselves? By the same token, how do we know that our very presence is not the catalyst for the overwhelming violence we have seen there?

A bomb is going to go off on the day we leave Iraq, whether that's tomorrow or in 10 years. We may as well have a goal of removing all strife from the middle east before we leave. This was never part of the deal. Personally, I think partitioning is a good idea...obviously, if we did that, we couldn't leave tomorrow, but we have to start thinking with a mindset of leaving, period.
 
Were you as vigilant about saying those who initially estimated this war at 6 months & $50 billion as "oversimplifying?"

What we have essentially done is put ourselves in the middle of something akin to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. At a certain point, we have to consider that we could easily be having the same discussion about whether or not to withdraw in 10 years, or 20. Is there truly a point at which we can feel comfortable leaving & confident that the Iraqi's can defend themselves? By the same token, how do we know that our very presence is not the catalyst for the overwhelming violence we have seen there?

A bomb is going to go off on the day we leave Iraq, whether that's tomorrow or in 10 years. We may as well have a goal of removing all strife from the middle east before we leave. This was never part of the deal. Personally, I think partitioning is a good idea...obviously, if we did that, we couldn't leave tomorrow, but we have to start thinking with a mindset of leaving, period.
I was. I fought against the war, not only because of oversimplification, but because even the "WMD" they spoke of were not "WMD"...

I do not believe that there is no way to leave behind a strong government that would be unwilling to relinquish power to this "bomb".

I believe that once entered, we need to win. That truly, once broken it must be paid for. Willing to put the accellerant on the fire, but not fight it, that is what the US is beginning to become... A nation of firefighters unwilling to fight the fire they incidentally started. A nation unwilling to back up the promises made...
 
What is winning in Iraq? I have yet to hear anyone define "victory." This isn't WWII, where we win when Germany & Japan surrender. We ousted Saddam. A democratically elected government is in place, with troops to protect it.

Iraq could be a place where violence exists for literally decades. There are violently opposed religious sects, as well as outside influences that we're all aware of, many of whom are there simply because the U.S. is there.

You realize that this situation could look pretty much the same in 5 years, right? In 10? Are you ready to advocate that kind of commitment from American troops?
 
what kind of success should we expect from any "deomcratic" government foisted on an islamic population with no experience with or deep seated longing for such a western style democracy...foisted on them at gunpoint by an invading conquering occupying christian army? what sort of success do you expect three ethnic groups who absolutely hate each other's guts to have when crammed together at the point of a gun and told to make nice?
 
What is winning in Iraq? I have yet to hear anyone define "victory." This isn't WWII, where we win when Germany & Japan surrender. We ousted Saddam. A democratically elected government is in place, with troops to protect it.

Iraq could be a place where violence exists for literally decades. There are violently opposed religious sects, as well as outside influences that we're all aware of, many of whom are there simply because the U.S. is there.

You realize that this situation could look pretty much the same in 5 years, right? In 10? Are you ready to advocate that kind of commitment from American troops?
What is winning? A secure and safe nation left behind, after we mucked it up. What is losing? Leaving behind a nation that becomes the center of a new Al Qaeda with direct access to oil revenues. We can pretend that this won't happen if we leave now, but methinks we would be fooling ourselves.
 
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