I Support Our Troops And I Honor Their Service!

What difference does...

it make how you felt about the Iraq war before we entered...we are in it regardless...and it must be finished...let's not make the same mistake of the VN war...cut and run when we were just 3 months from total victory! Support the troops and let them finish the job...then y'all can Armchair quarterback to your hearts content...doing it now only supports the enemy...imho ala Lt.Kerry and Jane(Hanoi)Fonda!
 
maineman said:
what kind of success should we expect from any "deomcratic" government foisted on an islamic population with no experience with or deep seated longing for such a western style democracy...foisted on them at gunpoint by an invading conquering occupying christian army? what sort of success do you expect three ethnic groups who absolutely hate each other's guts to have when crammed together at the point of a gun and told to make nice?
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Not much. I do however expect that we can work on differing solutions until we have found the one that can be successful so we can leave with something better than they started with.
 
What is winning in Iraq? I have yet to hear anyone define "victory." This isn't WWII, where we win when Germany & Japan surrender. We ousted Saddam. A democratically elected government is in place, with troops to protect it.

It's not Germany and Japan, but there are similarities to Europe and the Middle East. We have defeated Hitler, and are underway with the Marshal Plan. There are still some old guard sympathizers, just as Nazi's still existed in 1945. The plan was to stabilize Iraq, and train them to defend their nation against radical Islamic aggression. We still have troops stationed in Europe, to protect them from aggressors, that doesn't mean we will need people to be in Iraq in 50 years, but maybe we will... it shouldn't be something we capitulate to the terrorists on, because this shows weakness.

Strategically, there are a lot of things we can do, to lessen the risk our troops are in. For instance, night patrols along roadways that aren't controlled in the day. Letting Iraq forces take the lead in dangerous situations. We can't use them as shields, but they need to handle as much of the burden as they can endure, it is their country.


Of course, if Democrats do as they promised, we will be leaving Iraq to fend for itself sooner rather than later, and if it collapses into chaos, it will be blamed on Bush. None of you are really concerned with how Iraq ends up, you don't really care about the Iraqi people or democracy in the middle east, you just want to turn Iraq into Vietnam and crucify Bush.
 
Damocles said:
Not much. I do however expect that we can work on differing solutions until we have found the one that can be successful so we can leave with something better than they started with.
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yeah...a bunch of white caucasian christians should do really well at coming up with "solutions".

We might very well have to accept the fact that we will not be able to create something better than what we trashed...

and I laugh at those who point to what happened in Vietnam as some disgrace. Look where we are today. Vietnam is a successful selfgoverning nationstate with diplomatic ties to the US and with an economy that is doing quite nicely. What better solution would Battleborne want from that? Would he have wanted us to spill the blood of a fifty five thousand MORE americans before we reached that conclusion?
 
Prakosh said:
Sorry, maybe I'll write something on that later. If your question is motivated by serious curiosity and not just rhetorical, I think that there are plenty of websites that have articulated Bush's crimes to date. Simply go to Google and type in Impeach Bush, I'm sure you'll find an enormous amount of information. There are even several books available that detail the various grounds for his impeachment.

Trust me, from the Downing Street Memo to today; impeachment is not an overreach.
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Not at all, I simply don't waste my time reading exactly what you point out, to me this is the stuff that has become rhetorical. And when you suggest crimes, would that not be better put as alleged crimes? I mean really, has there been anything written in stone that proves the so called crime.

I have'nt seen any major news source providing the impeachment bit, not so sure typing in "impeach bush" would be a reliable way of compiling the best of info.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I believe that the phrase you're looking for is "high crimes and misdemeanors."

If it could be domonstrated that the president -- any president -- lied to Congress and the people, that would do it. Especially if that misprision was committed in order to goad the nation into a war of conquest.
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Ok this better answers the original question, however can it be demonstrated or can it be just something that you and many others are hoping is the case?

Can you better explain the "war of conquest" when you have the time?
 
Damocles said:
What is winning? A secure and safe nation left behind, after we mucked it up. What is losing? Leaving behind a nation that becomes the center of a new Al Qaeda with direct access to oil revenues. We can pretend that this won't happen if we leave now, but methinks we would be fooling ourselves.
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But is our staying just making it even more likely? That's the question that haunts me . . . and the answer I come up with more and more often is: yes, it is.
 
Dixie said:
yeah...a bunch of white caucasian christians should do really well at coming up with "solutions".

Heyyyy.... Not all Democrats are white Caucasian Christians!
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are you suggesting that American democrats - or American republicans for that matter - have a snowball's chance in hell of designing a warm and fuzzy happy ending in Iraq and somehow making it come to pass?
 
Sir Evil said:
Ok this better answers the original question, however can it be demonstrated or can it be just something that you and many others are hoping is the case?

Can you better explain the "war of conquest" when you have the time?
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It can be demonstrated that Bush made statements to the nation and Congress that were completely untrue. Specifically, all those assurances that there was no doubt about Saddam Hussein's capabilities and intentions. There was doubt. A lot of it, even within our own intelligence community. And, as we all know, now, the doubters were correct.

Did Shrubbie know that there were doubters? It's an open question, though I must admit that I find it almost impossible to believe that he did not. That's just my opnion: a Congressional investigation might shed some light on the issue.

If he did know, then he lied. Flat out and bald of face. And if he lied . . . .

War of conquest? Funny jest, Shirley. Why did we invade Iraq, if not for conquest? By "conquest" I mean with the intention of imposing a government friendly to our interests -- or what our leaders perceived then to be our interests -- and to establish permanent military bases in that region, replacing those we've been forced to remove from Saudi Arabia.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
But is our staying just making it even more likely? That's the question that haunts me . . . and the answer I come up with more and more often is: yes, it is.
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I think it is more our actions while we are staying. We foolishly sent the Army home, we then didn't bring enough with us to ensure actual security for the people we came to help. We can turn it around, we just need to accept that having a nation that will give to the terrorists is very likely if we leave at this point in time.

Losing this battle can have extreme consequences. We should not leave until there is a real way to call it victory. Not a Nacy Pelosi, "Victory is what we claim it to be" type of victory, but something tangible to say we are leaving for a reason.
 
maineman said:
are you suggesting that American democrats - or American republicans for that matter - have a snowball's chance in hell of designing a warm and fuzzy happy ending in Iraq and somehow making it come to pass?
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Yes, I believe that Americans can do that. I grow tired of the people who say that these people "just can't handle" this type of thing. Its silly. We need to bring them actual security before leaving, or we will have lost more than we ever will gain. Yes, it was foolish to go. I said so long before we went. I dislike where we are, but at this moment it would be foolish to leave.
 
I have never said that Iraqis could not handle democracy. I have stated that the animosity that exists makes it such that they have no desire to make nice with one another and form a warm and fuzzy multicultural democracy.
 
maineman said:
I have never said that Iraqis could not handle democracy. I have stated that the animosity that exists makes it such that they have no desire to make nice with one another and form a warm and fuzzy multicultural democracy.
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I honestly think we should separate the nation into three. It is a bit ridiculous to have some people with as much enmity as those in one supposed strong nation. Even two would be better than what is happening.
 
of course....but that causes all sorts of difficulties with Turkey for example....

bottom line: we should have never opened up this pandora's box..... I, along with countless democrats, were saying that all along.

And I was absolutely right..... and I just wish someone on the right would have the grace to admit that.
 
maineman said:
of course....but that causes all sorts of difficulties with Turkey for example....

bottom line: we should have never opened up this pandora's box..... I, along with countless democrats, were saying that all along.

And I was absolutely right..... and I just wish someone on the right would have the grace to admit that.
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What does, "I thought it was wrong to go in from the beginning." mean? To me it means I agree. However, once opened there is a necessity to extract ourselves with more than just quickness, but also smartly.
 
There cannot be a democratic society in iraq as long as they live by islamic law and their constitution is based on it. The best we can do is give them the means to protect themselves and hope clear heads prevail in the long run. But true democracy and islam cannot exist. Just as the sunni and shea can't exist together.
 
do you think if we spilled the blood of another three or four thousand Americans, that such a sacrifice would make sunnis and shiites who have hated one another for a millenium decide to bury their hatred and form a multicultural democracy shining like a beacon of freedom?

no? how about ten thousand more dead Americans? Would that do it?
 
for crissakes...can't anyone just admit that our actions have totally fucked up Iraq for the foreseeable future? Can anyone just say to the world that we will punish the assholes who did this and never let them make decisions about our national interest ever again?
 
maineman said:
for crissakes...can't anyone just admit that our actions have totally fucked up Iraq for the foreseeable future? Can anyone just say to the world that we will punish the assholes who did this and never let them make decisions about our national interest ever again?
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However much people want to believe that this was something illegal, the Congress authorized it, the play was made and we are there. Just saying this, will not assuage our responsibility or be a magic fix. Simply extricating ourselves would be foolish when it would leave the nation open to the very enemy we need to be fighting.
 
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