Identical twins, one gay, one ain't

Southern Man said:
Yet they get the exact same concentrations of hormones, nutrients, etc.
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First it is wrong to assume that they even share the same placenta, not all identical twins do. Second, They each have separate umbilical cords (they'd have to or they'd share a belly button.), umbilical entanglement can cause differences in how much hormone, nutrient, etc one twin gets compared to the other even with a shared placenta (most have this, but not all identical twins share a placenta.)

Shoot, sometimes identical twins (if the egg splits within two days) will have separate amniotic sacs (usually for this one, placentas, et al yet will still have come from one egg and are thus identical.

Rarely do twins share the same amniotic sac, in fact that only occurs in late twin development and it creates a higher risk of conjoined twins. This makes it so the womb experience, even for twins sharing a placenta, that can be very different and unique for each twin.
 
Damocles said:
First it is wrong to assume that they even share the same placenta, not all identical twins do. Second, They each have separate umbilical cords (they'd have to or they'd share a belly button.), umbilical entanglement can cause differences in how much hormone, nutrient, etc one twin gets compared to the other even with a shared placenta (most have this, but not all identical twins share a placenta.)

Shoot, sometimes identical twins (if the egg splits within two days) will have separate amniotic sacs, etc. yet will still have come from one egg and are thus identical.

Rarely do twins share the same amniotic sac, in fact that only occurs in late twin development and it creates a higher risk of conjoined twins.
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Assuming that they didn't share an amniotic sac or placenta, they would still have the same concentration of hormones and nutrients, because they both have the same mother. *shrug*
 
Southern Man said:
Assuming that they didn't share an amniotic sac or placenta, they would still have the same concentration of hormones and nutrients, because they both have the same mother. *shrug*
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But they wouldn't. That is like saying that two different hoses, one that is kinked the other not, would have the same flow of water because they are hooked to the same house. They wouldn't.

There are differences in the experience between twins in the womb. Shoot sometimes identical twins even look quite a bit different because of that different experience (other times one is gay, the other straight.) And as I have stated, genetics can play a role in it in males, couple that with hormonal differences in the womb and you can have very different people with very different personalities from the same genetic material.
 
Damocles said:
But they wouldn't. That is like saying that two different hoses, one that is kinked the other not, would have the same flow of water because they are hooked to the same house. They wouldn't.....
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Yet the concentrations in each hose would be identical.
 
Southern Man said:
Yet the concentrations in each hose would be identical.
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Yet one would get less, eh? Man you are thick on this.

The reality is, the experience is not the same because one twin generally gets more than the other (hence different birth weights.) While usually the difference doesn't create such a profound difference as hetero to homosexuality it is very real.

They are separate individuals with separate experience from the very beginning even in utero...
 
Damocles said:
Yet one would get less, eh? Man you are thick on this.
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No reason to get personal Damo.

Of course they would get unequal volumes, meaning that one might birth at 6#, and the other at 7, yet since the blood concentrations of all nutrients are the same, the twins are born physically identical (except for weight).
 
Southern Man said:
No reason to get personal Damo.

Of course they would get unequal volumes, meaning that one might birth at 6#, and the other at 7, yet since the blood concentrations of all nutrients are the same, the twins are born physically identical (except for weight).
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Again, less of the hormone can cause different differences than weight.

One sign that their womb experience is different is the fact that they do not weigh the same, another is the fact that they will act differently, think differently, and sometimes have a large enough difference to be notable to some people, like sexuality.

Your assumption that even the concentration would be the same is fallacious. Especially in twins that do not share placentas.

It seems you will maintain any illusion that you want to assume it wasn't some natural phenomena, even one that upsets activists because it can lead to "curing" the "ailment" if we verify and regulate hormone levels pre-birth.

The differences in hormones can change the way their brains work for their lifetime.
 
Damocles said:
Again, less of the hormone can cause different differences than weight.

One sign that their womb experience is different is the fact that they do not weigh the same, another is the fact that they will act differently, think differently, and sometimes have a large enough difference to be notable to some people, like sexuality.

Your assumption that even the concentration would be the same is fallacious. Especially in twins that do not share placentas.

....
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The smaller twin would get the same concentration of everything; she'd get the same quantity of hormones relative to her weight.

Besides, there's no correlation between size of people and homosexuality.

Two different placentas in the same womb would get the same maternal blood concentrations, therefore the fetal blood concentrations would be identical.

Again, the discussion here is if people are born gay or not, and again, the facts of this case suggest not.
 
Southern Man said:
The smaller twin would get the same concentration of everything; she'd get the same quantity of hormones relative to her weight.

Besides, there's no correlation between size of people and homosexuality.

Two different placentas in the same womb would get the same maternal blood concentrations, therefore the fetal blood concentrations would be identical.

Again, the discussion here is if people are born gay or not, and again, the facts of this case suggest not.
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Except it would have less and thus have a different womb experience, and again your "concentration" thesis is specious. Some hormone and nutrients can be diverted to the stronger twin. The experience is not the same.

Read the study rather than just keep repeating this fallacy. And different placentas would not always have the "same blood concentrations". Hoses hooked up in different parts of your house can even have different mineral content in the water that comes out. It is specious to assume that because they have the same mother all things will be the same, even when they are sharing the womb.
 
http://www.wisegeek.com/are-identical-twins-really-identical.htm

Since identical twins are relatively rare, they often attract a great deal of curiosity. It is estimated that there are just 10 million identical twins in the world, which means about 1 in 80 births is the result of a twin pregnancy.

Identical twins, also known as monozygotic twins, are born when a mother’s single fertilized egg is split into two parts after conception. Since identical twins are formed from the same zygote, their DNA is almost indistinguishable. While identical twins have the same basic genetic makeup, however, it is interesting to note that they do not have identical fingerprints.

Recently, researchers have also proven the existence of “semi-identical” twins. These twins are born when one egg is fertilized by two sperm before splitting into two parts. This results in twins that have identical genes from their mother, but different genes from their father’s side. However, this form of twin pregnancy is quite uncommon.

Although identical twins have many similarities, there are subtle differences. For example, many pairs of identical twins have different weights or heights. This can happen as the result of dietary differences, serious illness, or a different connection to the placenta while the twins were still in the womb.
 
Let's put it this way, even if the ratio is the same, the fact that one of the twins gets less than the other can change the way that they think, according to the results of the study.
 
evince said:
http://www.wisegeek.com/are-identical-twins-really-identical.htm

Since identical twins are relatively rare, they often attract a great deal of curiosity. It is estimated that there are just 10 million identical twins in the world, which means about 1 in 80 births is the result of a twin pregnancy.

Identical twins, also known as monozygotic twins, are born when a mother’s single fertilized egg is split into two parts after conception. Since identical twins are formed from the same zygote, their DNA is almost indistinguishable. While identical twins have the same basic genetic makeup, however, it is interesting to note that they do not have identical fingerprints.

Recently, researchers have also proven the existence of “semi-identical” twins. These twins are born when one egg is fertilized by two sperm before splitting into two parts. This results in twins that have identical genes from their mother, but different genes from their father’s side. However, this form of twin pregnancy is quite uncommon.

Although identical twins have many similarities, there are subtle differences. For example, many pairs of identical twins have different weights or heights. This can happen as the result of dietary differences, serious illness, or a different connection to the placenta while the twins were still in the womb.
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This line from your link should be particularly noted:

"or a different connection to the placenta while the twins were still in the womb."
 
Damocles said:
Except it would have less and thus have a different womb experience, and again your "concentration" thesis is specious. Some hormone and nutrients can be diverted to the stronger twin. The experience is not the same.

Read the study rather than just keep repeating this fallacy. And different placentas would not always have the "same blood concentrations". Hoses hooked up in different parts of your house can even have different mineral content in the water that comes out. It is specious to assume that because they have the same mother all things will be the same, even when they are sharing the womb.
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Its not a "thesis", but fact. A placenta is a simple organ that transfers chemistry from one blood system to another. The twins are early indistinguishable as adults, not just looks but physical talents and abilities, which again, defies your thesis of differing concentrations of certain key chemicals.

Your hose example is unclear and does not appear to be analogous.

I skimmed your linked study and the word "twin" does appear. It is unrelated to the issue being discussed.
 
evince said:
http://www.wisegeek.com/are-identical-twins-really-identical.htm

Since identical twins are relatively rare, they often attract a great deal of curiosity. It is estimated that there are just 10 million identical twins in the world, which means about 1 in 80 births is the result of a twin pregnancy.

Identical twins, also known as monozygotic twins, are born when a mother’s single fertilized egg is split into two parts after conception. Since identical twins are formed from the same zygote, their DNA is almost indistinguishable. While identical twins have the same basic genetic makeup, however, it is interesting to note that they do not have identical fingerprints.

Recently, researchers have also proven the existence of “semi-identical” twins. These twins are born when one egg is fertilized by two sperm before splitting into two parts. This results in twins that have identical genes from their mother, but different genes from their father’s side. However, this form of twin pregnancy is quite uncommon.

Although identical twins have many similarities, there are subtle differences. For example, many pairs of identical twins have different weights or heights. This can happen as the result of dietary differences, serious illness, or a different connection to the placenta while the twins were still in the womb.
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If different genes from the father the adult appearances of the two women would be different. They ain't. *shrug*
 
Southern Man said:
Its not a "thesis", but fact. A placenta is a simple organ that transfers chemistry from one blood system to another. The twins are early indistinguishable as adults, not just looks but physical talents and abilities, which again, defies your thesis of differing concentrations of certain key chemicals.

Your hose example is unclear and does not appear to be analogous.

I skimmed your linked study and the word "twin" does appear. It is unrelated to the issue being discussed.
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True, but to repeat again.

The smaller amount can cause differences other than just birth weight according to the study.

This time I bolded the important bit that you continue to ignore, along with your specious idea that it is a "simple" thing that will simply pass along exactly the same thing to two fetuses. If such were the case, there would be no difference in birth weight. We already know that one may be getting less nutrient (birth weight) and that the results of the study show that different levels of hormones in utero can change how a person's brain works.

Insisting that it would all be the same because of a ratio aspect is the fallacious portion of your specious argument.

You only read the article, not the study. Please educate yourself on twindom from the other links that have been provided, it will be helpful if you quit insisting what has already shown to be incorrect. Twins are not, in fact, passed the exact same ratio of hormones in the womb because placental differences are more pronounced than you are insisting.
 
Damocles said:
Study after study has shown differences in the actual brain activity of gay v. hetero people. This of course was trumpeted by gay activists as evidence that it was genetic rather than a choice or environmental.

There is some theory that the hormonal conditions in the womb can be part of what causes a proclivity towards this. It is what is theorized to be the reason that the third son of a couple has a far higher chance of being gay than the first son of the same couple. To understand this phenomena, scientists have begun to study brain activity that forms during gestation or just after, using brain scans. They did this to rule out the factor of learning.

Here is one of those studies:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...tructured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html

(If you scroll down on the original screen after clicking the link you can choose skip and it will take you to the story without having to register.)

This, of course, leads some scientists to study the hormonal factors. Especially when they found that genetics is almost not a factor at all in female homosexuality. (That part is in the full publication of that study and seems not to be present in that article.)

If you use that theory and extend it here, it is possible that one twin got more than his fair share of testosterone in the womb.

This, of course, leads many homosexuals to deny the studies' implications as it may cause many people to seek hormonal therapy in the womb to "ensure" that their child will not have this particular hurdle to overcome.

Well. That's one explanation for it, at the least.

A second explanation is that genetics create a proclivity towards not a guarantee of homosexuality, this is particularly evident in males where it is shown that genetics may play a role but is not the sole significant factor.
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So it's not genetic? Then it is at least hard wired, shown by the differences in the brains. For what ever reasons, genetic, hormonal, or traumatically induced, it is still not a choice.
 
Not all identical twins are identical.

Mirror Image Twins
Mirror image twins are monozygotic, twins that form from a single fertilized egg. When the split occurs late - more than a week after conception - the twins can develop reverse asymmetric features. This term is not really a type of twin, just an way to describe their physical features. For example, they may be right- and left-handed, have birthmarks on opposite sides of their body, or have hair whorls that swirl in opposite directions. In theory, if the twins faced each other, they would appear to be exact reflections of each other. About 25% of identical twins are mirror image twins.
 
Socrtease said:
So it's not genetic? Then it is at least hard wired, shown by the differences in the brains. For what ever reasons, genetic, hormonal, or traumatically induced, it is still not a choice.
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True. However, gay activists are most upset over this. While genetics play a part in male homosexuality, it only lends a proclivity not a certainty. What is most effective is the way they are effected by hormones in the womb.

This will lead, IMO, to people attempting to regulate hormonal balances and effectively "inoculate" in the womb against homosexuality.
 
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