If a girl is drunk, is it okay to have sex with her?

If a girl is drunk, is it okay to have sex with her?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 66.7%

  • No

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Total voters
    6
I'd want prior consent,,if not an actual "let's get drunk and screw" something very close.

Also I'd know my partner well enough not to have to ask first,,knowing what she thinks of this situation.
 
annata said:
I'd want prior consent,,if not an actual "let's get drunk and screw" something very close.

Also I'd know my partner well enough not to have to ask first,,knowing what she thinks of this situation.
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There you go! Wow, an adult. Yeah not complicated. But I guess you do have to have some respect for yourself and for your partner
 
Camille Paglia made this speech in 1991, could have been yesterday.

Crisis In The American Universities
by Camille Paglia
American Professor of Humanities ​








September 19, 1991 at M.I.T. in Cambridge, Massachusetts. This extemporaneous talk was sponsored by M.I.T.'s Writing Program. ​






Thank you, Professor Manning, for that most gracious introduction. And may I say what a pleasure it is to be here, a mere stone's throw from Harvard.
I address you tonight after several sex changes and a great deal of ambiguity over sexual orientation over twenty-five years. I am the Sixties come back to haunt the present.

Now, speaking here at M.I.T. confronted me with a dilemma. I asked myself, should I try to act like a lady? I can do it. It's hard, it takes a lot out of me, I can do it for a few hours. But then I thought, Naw. These people, both my friends and my enemies who are here, aren't coming to see me act like a lady. So I thought I'd just be myself--which is, you know, abrasive, strident, and obnoxious. So then you can all go outside and say, "What a bitch!"

Now, the reason I'm getting so much attention: I think it's pretty obvious that we're in a time where there's a kind of impasse in contemporary thinking. And what I represent is independent thought. What I represent is the essence of the Sixties, which is free thought and free speech. And a lot of people don't like it. A lot of people who are well-meaning on both sides of the political spectrum want to shut down free speech. And my mission is to be absolutely as painful as possible in every situation.

So I've been attacking what I regard as the ideology of date rape. At the same time as I consider rape an outrage, I consider the propaganda and hysteria about date rape equally outrageous from the Sixties point of view, utterly reactionary from a Sixties point of view. And I will continue to attack it. And I will continue to attack the well-meaning people who think they're protecting women and in fact are infantilizing them. Right now in the current SPIN, I'm going after a few other things, like battered women and snuff films. And I'm going to be as painful as possible, until Gloria Steinem screams!

The problem of the last twenty years is that people think that "liberal" and "conservative" mean something. The liberal and conservative dichotomy is dead. The last time it was authentic was in the Fifties, when there really was an adversarial voice coming out of people I really respected, the New York Jewish intellectuals like Lionel Trilling and the people of Partisan Review. There was an authentic liberal versus conservative dichotomy at that time. But my generation of the Sixties, with all of our great ideals, destroyed liberalism, because of our excesses. We have to face that. And we have to look for something new right now.

The situation right now is that we have on one side people who consider themselves leftists but to me, as far as academe is concerned, are phonies, people who have absolutely no credentials for political thinking, have no training in history, whose basic claim to politics is simply that nothing has happened to them in their lives. A lot of these people have money. I'm sick and tired of these New Historicists with trust funds. I'm so sick and tired of it. And because they're pampered, their whole lives have been comfortable, because they've kissed asses all the way to the top, they have to show they're authentic by pretending sympathy for the poor lower classes, the poor victims.

The whole thing is nothing but a literary game. I'm exposing it. And I'm exposing it from the inside. I attended a public university, Harpur College of the State University of New York at Binghamton, which was sort of like Berkeley East at that time, seething with real radicals. I know what real radicals look like--and they did not go on to graduate school. When I got to Yale for graduate school--I spent four years there and barely survived that experience--it was the last point that scholarship in literary studies was authentic, when it was solid. And it began to wander away from that base in the last twenty years. It's something I'm trying to reform at the present time.

What we have right now is this ridiculous situation where if you criticize liberals, people say, "She's a conservative!" Now, what kind of a lack of information is this about intellectual history? Liberalism is only 200 years old. There are other points of view on the world besides that of liberalism in its present decayed condition. We of the Sixties were often in revolt against liberals. Lenny Bruce, when he recited all those dirty words, was trying to offend liberals, not conservatives. So in the present situation I don't know what to call myself. I would maybe say "libertarian" or something like that. I'm trying to create a new system--I call it "Italian pagan Catholicism." But that may be too esoteric! I'm thinking that I want to bring about an enlightened center. I would like to call it, maybe, "pragmatic liberalism," that is, a liberalism that has learned the political lessons of the past twenty-five years.
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Now when people say to me, "Oh, you're always talking about feminists as if they're monolithic. We're not monolithic. We're very pluralistic. We have so many different views." No, excuse me: the date-rape issue shows that I am correct. Because there is one voice speaking about date rape from coast to coast, one voice, one stupid, shrewish, puritanical, sermonizing, hysterical voice. And where are all these sophisticated feminists supposedly out there? Where are they? Totally impotent, locked in their little burrows wherever they are, whether they're in the East Village or Harvard. Wherever they are, they're impotent. There's not one voice raised to bring some sense into this hysteria. Now, I am an experienced teacher. I sympathize with the problems of freshmen, and so I believe that date-rape awareness is an excellent thing to do when students arrive, not only for the men, to warn the men that breaches of civilized behavior will not be tolerated, but also to warn the women, because unfortunately to me what's happening is that we have a white middle-class problem. I don't notice so many Hispanic women and African-American women going around and carrying on like this.

Like just this weekend--I'm getting so sick and tired, so nauseated by what's been happening--down in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of the Arts, there were two incidents at Temple University, and I think they're just a disgrace to women, these incidents--as reported--we don't know what really happened. The girl has met the guy once before, this is the second time she met him, they were at a party, she invites him back to her room, its three A.M., she falls asleep, and then suddenly something happens, and she charges him with rape. Now, pardon me, wake up to reality! This is a ridiculous situation. If a real rape occurs, I will help to lynch the guy from the nearest tree. I will be absolutely ferocious. I will get my switchblade knife--given to me by a reporter, by the way!--I will help track down the rapist and punish him. But this sort of thing is disastrous. We cannot have this, these white middle-class girls coming out of pampered homes, expecting to do whatever they want. They don't understand what's going on, that there's a sexual content to their behavior, that maybe there's a subliminal sexuality, a provocativeness in their behavior. "Don't say 'provocative'! Because then you're blaming the victim!" Well, women will never be taken seriously until they accept full responsibility for their sexuality.

We have got to let the mind open freely, freely toward sex, and understand that from the moment you're on a date with a man, the idea of sex is hovering in the air--hover, hover, hover, okay? I'll tell you what I'm bringing back. I'm bringing back lust! A friend of mine, Robert Caserio, said in a recent lecture at Ann Arbor, "There's a lot of talk about gender on campus these days, but not much about sex." And he said there's a kind of "antisepsis in the classroom." And I think this is really true. There's a real Puritanism about the way sex is being discussed and "managed" in the current ideology of women's studies. Now, you know that recent song, "Sadeness," from the Euro-pop disco album by Enigma. There's another great song on there, "The Principles of Lust." And I thought, "Yes, that's what I'm doing in my work." I am discovering and articulating the principles of lust.
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Now for a series of minor points. The idea that feminism is the first group that ever denounced rape is a gross libel to men. Throughout history, rape has been condemned by honorable men. Honorable men do not murder; honorable men do not steal; honorable men do not rape. It goes all the way back through history. Tarquin's rape of Lucretia caused the fall of the tyrants and the beginning of the Roman Republic. This idea that somehow suddenly feminism miraculously found out that women were being exploited and raped though history is ridiculous. We have got to remove things like rape from the women's studies context and pull it back into ethics. It belongs in ethics. We have to ask how should everyone--not just men--how should everyone be trained as a child to behave in society. We must put it in a general philosophical context. This idea of focusing in, suddenly, at the freshman year of college--it's too late! Guess what--you're not going to convert anyone with a few films on date-rape education, a few demonstrations, and a few pamphlets being passed out, you're not going to change anyone's mind. Look--ethics has always condemned such abuses. You do not have this endless series of atrocities through history. Men have also protected women. Men have given women sustenance. Men have provided for women. Men have died to defend the country for women. We must look back and acknowledge what men have done for women.

Men's creation of the technological world of today has made me possible. I remember my paternal grandmother on the back porch in Endicott, scrubbing the clothes on a washboard. She had nine children. I remember that. I, her granddaughter, could have the leisure to write this book, thanks to the technological world and modern capitalism, which has such a bad rep. Look around the world, okay, and see what the reality is. Oh, I thank God I was born an American, I thank God. When I got to Europe--I feel the smog of convention hanging everywhere in Europe, even in England, which is a very free-speaking and free-thinking country. In America, woman is at her freest. Never in history have women been freer than they are here. And this idea, this bitching, bitching, kvetching about capitalism and America and men, this whining--it's infantile, it's an adolescent condition, it's bad for women. It's very, very bad to convince young women that they have been victims and that their heritage is nothing but victimization. This is another perversion.

All right. Here's something: Germaine Greer. What a loss. What a loss! If that woman had stayed on her original track, all of feminism would have been different. She was sophisticated, sexy, literate. What happened to her? After three years, she turned into this drone, this whining, "Woe is me, all the problems of the world!" Something went wrong in feminism. This often happens in history. Revolutions begin laudably but sometimes almost immediately degenerate into ideology or into partisanship and so on. Every revolution eventually needs a new revolution. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to get rid of feminism. I'm trying to reform it, to save it, to bring it into the twenty-first century, in a way that allows the sexes to come together instead of being alienated from each other, that allows sex to be hot and not have, like, wet blankets of sermonizing thrown over it.

Sontag. Ohhh. Another woman. Both these women, Germaine Greer, Susan Sontag. What happened? When people say, "Oh, men keep women back," look, in our own time, two major women self-destructed. These women should have been leaders. These women should have been Madame de Staels. Their work should have astonished multitudes. Both these women had the attention of the world, and they lost it. Through their own failings. Sometimes women have failings. Sometimes everything is not because of male conspiracy. Sometimes women do stupid things, okay, and become vain and conceited. In those two cases, those are major losses.

I feel that Susan Sontag should have been a leader in critiquing feminism but instead she just played this role--whatever the role is that she plays--Miss Mandarin in her New York apartment. I don't know what the hell she's been doing for twenty years. She thinks she's a novelist. That's what she's doing right now, writing a novel. That's just what we're all waiting for, huh? Another novel by Susan Sontag! She has no talent whatever for fiction-writing. It's just a delusion. This is a woman who should have been a leading intellectual. This is a woman who should have provided that median link between academe and the world of popular culture. She started doing it. And then she pulled back when people attacked her. They said, "What are you doing? You're not serious!" And now she says silly things to Time magazine like, "Oh, well, I don't know why people talk like this. After all, I never wrote a whole essay on the Supremes. I merely mentioned them." Oh, come on! I would love to write an essay on the Supremes. In fact, I have--there's a whole section on them in Volume Two of Sexual Personae.

Sontag should have provided this link. This is what we need. We have a split between the world of the media and the world of academe that has been bad for both. And we need to bring the two audiences together. She should have done that, and I'm going to be trying to bring serious intellectual issues into the public domain and similarly bring public concerns back into academe. Because for all the talk of academic feminism about how they care for women--they think they speak for women--they don't speak for women! You go out in the street, most women on the street have contempt for feminists. Why? It's because of the excesses of feminism. They like to go through this ritual, "Oh, yes, we have such solidarity with Third World women." They don't know anything about Third World women! So much of academic feminism today is nothing but the complaining of white upper-middle-class women. They don't even realize the extent to which they're trapped in their own class. They don't realize it. And they just have to be broken out of it.
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Read more: http://gos.sbc.edu/p/paglia.html
 
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BTW this thread is a likely a result of Dr Phil tweeting this question yesterday. Apparently he is having the parents of Rehtaeh Parsons on his show.

Rehtaeh Parsons was 15 when she went to a party and was gang raped by four boys. She was drunk and throwing up. She didn't remember much, but they took pics and put them online. It's a very famous case because the Canadian police did shit, so she was then cyber bullied as a "slut", and eventually hanged herself.

But you whiny self-pitying men (the few on this thread like Tom, I mean) are definitely the poor persecuted ones.

I honestly don't know what kind of women fuck you guys, but God help them. God help them. I wouldn't.
 
Superfreak said:
wacko pointed that out in post number 2
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What are you, his agent? I didn't see that, I only saw his stupid video and then I closed my eyes and moved past some posts. I prefer not to read Cawacko when he's doing something I don't like, how do you think we've stayed friends all these years?
 
Superfreak said:
wacko pointed that out in post number 2
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I just looked at it, and his story doesn't mention the likely cause of Dr. Phil's tweet. I personally can't stand that guy, but in this case, to be fair, I am not so sure he was doing anything other than attempting to educate younger people about consent. I think he might have been unfairly jumped on. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt since even though he's an asshole, I have not ever seen anything from him that would square with minimizing consent.
 
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