‘If God is dead, then everything is permitted.’

Cypress said:
Okay, I agree in principle that our framework of values and ethics come from something innate about the human mind's ability to transcend biology and material necessity. I've made the case dozens of times that many of our values and ethics are not required by Darwinian evolution and biological necessity.

There's no empirical reason to say it's because of the Christian god though
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If you accept the concept that the human mind can transcend biology and material necessity then empirical reason is irrelevant. There is also no empirical reason for your mothers love of you.

The larger and more important point is, man is not the grantor of rights. I hope I do t have to explain why that is a horrible way to decide who has what rights. The founders used the word "creator", other societies may use a different word of phrase but it's all points to get same thing, we have value, worth and rights by virtue of being human. The caste system is the best example of what happens when the worth of humans is decided by mankind.
 
Yakuda said:
If you accept the concept that the human mind can transcend biology and material necessity then empirical reason is irrelevant. There is also no empirical reason for your mothers love of you.

The larger and more important point is, man is not the grantor of rights. I hope I do t have to explain why that is a horrible way to decide who has what rights. The founders used the word "creator", other societies may use a different word of phrase but it's all points to get same thing, we have value, worth and rights by virtue of being human. The caste system is the best example of what happens when the worth of humans is decided by mankind.
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A mother's attachment to their offspring is clearly based on evolutionary biology, it's not a mystery.

I think the concept of natural rights has widespread consensus. Humans seem to aspire to it. I've never been a moral relativist.
I don't think there is any proof that natural rights descends from God, rather than from the mind of humans.
 
Cypress said:
A mother's attachment to their offspring is clearly based on evolutionary biology, it's not a mystery.

I think the concept of natural rights has widespread consensus. Humans seem to aspire to it. I've never been a moral relativist.
I don't think there is any proof that natural rights descends from God, rather than from the mind of humans.
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I didn't say it was a mystery. I said there is no empirical reason for your mothers love for you not her attachment to you. Not the same. Also it's clearly not universal in that not all women who give birth experience that attachment.

Consensus is a useless and irrelevant concept concerning rights. If natural rights descend from the mind of humans and not God then you would have no just reason to oppose slavery if the consensus agrees to reinstate it. AGAIN do I have to explain why leaving rights in the hands of humans is a very bad idea?
 
Yakuda said:
I didn't say it was a mystery. I said there is no empirical reason for your mothers love for you not her attachment to you. Not the same. Also it's clearly not universal in that not all women who give birth experience that attachment.

Consensus is a useless and irrelevant concept concerning rights. If natural rights descend from the mind of humans and not God then you would have no just reason to oppose slavery if the consensus agrees to reinstate it. AGAIN do I have to explain why leaving rights in the hands of humans is a very bad idea?
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It can be scientifically demostrated why a mammals care and attachment for their offspring is an evolutionary benefit. I am sure it can be observed and measured throughout the mammalian world, so that makes it empircal. Anything that can be observed and experienced through sensory perception is empircal.

Your God is not going to stop slavery. The majority of people on this planet do not recognize your god.

Slavery was abolished because people do not like being slaves, or they don't like the possibility that they, their friends, their neighbors might become slaves.

The only people who ever actively supported slavery were the political and military elites, and those with a vested economic interest: southern plantation owners, Arab sultans, Roman senators, African kings, the elite landed gentry, etc.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
it's not voices in my head, it's the words in his book........and it isn't that what we were created for?.......to do right things?......
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Ah, the words written by some guys that heard voices in their heads. I get it. You rely on second hand schizophrenia.

Who told you we were created FOR something? The same schizophrenics?

We either do or don’t do the right things out of our own volition. No deity required.
 
Yakuda said:
If you accept the concept that the human mind can transcend biology and material necessity then empirical reason is irrelevant. There is also no empirical reason for your mothers love of you.

The larger and more important point is, man is not the grantor of rights. I hope I do t have to explain why that is a horrible way to decide who has what rights. The founders used the word "creator", other societies may use a different word of phrase but it's all points to get same thing, we have value, worth and rights by virtue of being human. The caste system is the best example of what happens when the worth of humans is decided by mankind.
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Who else is going to determine the worth of humans other than other humans? Certainly not the Christian god who determines winners and losers from the get go.
 
Cypress said:
It can be scientifically demostrated why a mammals care and attachment for their offspring is an evolutionary benefit. I am sure it can be observed and measured throughout the mammalian world, so that makes it empircal. Anything that can be observed and experienced through sensory perception is empircal.

Your God is not going to stop slavery. The majority of people on this planet do not recognize your god.

Slavery was abolished because people do not like being slaves, or they don't like the possibility that they, their friends, their neighbors might become slaves.

The only people who ever actively supported slavery were the political and military elites, and those with a vested economic interest: southern plantation owners, Arab sultans, Roman senators, African kings, the elite landed gentry, etc.
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AGAIN you confuse love with attachment.

Where did I say God was going to stop slavery? We can't have a discussion if you only respond so what's inside your head.

But slavery was legal regardless of what people "wanted" and consensus made it happen and AGAIN if a consensus of people wanted to reinstate slavery you would have no just reason to oppose them. According to you men grant rights not God and if people decide through consensus to enslave people you have no valid argument against it.
 
domer76 said:
Who else is going to determine the worth of humans other than other humans? Certainly not the Christian god who determines winners and losers from the get go.
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You're very confused. God doesnt determine "winners and losers" and other humans dont determine anyone's worth as a person.
 
Yakuda said:
AGAIN you confuse love with attachment.

Where did I say God was going to stop slavery? We can't have a discussion if you only respond so what's inside your head.

But slavery was legal regardless of what people "wanted" and consensus made it happen and AGAIN if a consensus of people wanted to reinstate slavery you would have no just reason to oppose them. According to you men grant rights not God and if people decide through consensus to enslave people you have no valid argument against it.
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The best protection against a return to slavery and oppression is the institution and protection on liberal democracy and liberal civil society.


Slavery existed for thousands of years and no diety ever showed up to stop it, or even inspired humans to rid themselves of it's corruption.

Until 1865, almost half the white people in the United States fought to keep slavery, and wanted to expand it to other states. And they were pointing to the bible to explain why slavery was both lawful and beneficial.
 
domer76 said:
Who else is going to determine the worth of humans other than other humans? Certainly not the Christian god who determines winners and losers from the get go.
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knowing is different from determining......God never doubted you woud be a fuck up, but he didn't make you a fuck up.......
 
Cypress said:
The best protection against a return to slavery and oppression is the institution and protection on liberal democracy and liberal civil society.


Slavery existed for thousands of years and no diety ever showed up to stop it, or even inspired humans to rid themselves of it's corruption.

Until 1865, almost half the white people in the United States fought to keep slavery, and wanted to expand it to other states. And they were pointing to the bible to explain why slavery was both lawful and beneficial.
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Until consensus says otherwise and if rights are granted by human minds then you have no just cause to oppose slavery if the consensus demand it.

AGAIN I've never claimed God would stop slavery. People compelled by the concept of natural rights did stop it. Thank God. And slavery was wrong even when the consensus said otherwise. You can't claim slavery is wrong you can just claim it's not allowed based on consensus.
 
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