If not for the bailouts & stimulus package...
- Thread starter Onceler
- Start date
Answer: I don't know ... probably not though.
Explanation of answer: I don't know all that much about the stock market as I don't play the investment games ... the "probably not" comes from my watching the news during the downturn when folks acted like there was no end in sight.
Explanation of answer: I don't know all that much about the stock market as I don't play the investment games ... the "probably not" comes from my watching the news during the downturn when folks acted like there was no end in sight.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
hard to say.....if we had done something smarter than spending billions of dollars on nothing it could have have been at 12,000, who knows.......
Much of that had to do with Presidents Bush and Obama out make speeches about the doom of the century.
As for my answer, probably not. But would be be better set for a rebuilding rather than simply refreshing the same bubbles?
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
There is no imperical evidence that bailouts and the stimulus have done anything but spend trillions of US taxpayer dollars .. and there are more than a few economists who doubt that they have done anything else.
Any "plan" that puts Wall Street before focusing on job creation is a plan made in hell.
We've been sold on bullshit.
Any "plan" that puts Wall Street before focusing on job creation is a plan made in hell.
We've been sold on bullshit.
Wall Street, more often than not, is a reflection of Main Street.
If you don't believe me, check back over the past year and see how many jobs were lost when the market crashed. The market does not exist in some vacuum. It is not just some playground for the very rich that is detached from regular Americans.
As for the correct answer: no, the market would not be anywhere close to where it is without both the bailouts & the stimulus. I would argue that not bailing out GM alone would have cost the market about 1,000 pts., as well as hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs. And that's just a small piece of the puzzle.
Those measures were necessary.....
Those measures were necessary.....
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I'm surprised that you fall for this bullshit my brother.
Wall Street in not a reflection of Main Street or the overall economy.
That's the bullshit they sell.
While you're trumpeting great Wall Street gains, the rest of the country is in the dumps.
I'm equally surprised that you can't see the connection. It's mind-boggling, to be honest.
When Wall Street tanks, millions of jobs are lost. Conversely, the market's health is crucial if employers are to start planning hires & re-hires; if the market continues to struggle, they will shelve or put on hold any such plans.
Those are just facts. They are indisputable. You could probably go back through recent history and figure out how many jobs are lost with every 1,000 points of drop in the Dow.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Dude, the stock market can go up while unemployment is rising. In fact, a company's stock prices will often rise when they layoff large numbers of people.
The stock market is for gamblers .. not a reflection of what is happening in the rest of the country.
Wall Street should be in Las Vegas.
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Please. What a crock of shit. This is from today's Wall Street Journal:
Give me a fucking break.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
????...did you notice that more than half a million jobs were lost this month?.......even though the market went up?.......
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
the stimulus hasn't done squat yet....it is only 1/3 spent....
but it is nice to see onceler give bush credit for fixing the economy with his bailouts....
but it is nice to see onceler give bush credit for fixing the economy with his bailouts....
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
appears onceler may be right about the bailouts....
the stimulus hasn't done squat yet....it is only 1/3 spent....
but it is nice to see onceler give bush credit for fixing the economy with his bailouts....
That's fairly predictable. I figured you'd be the 1st to politicize this.
It's very child-like.
It's often repeated, but jobs are a lagging indicator.
If the market doesn't stay healthy, those jobs will stay lost. This isn't even debatable; it's in the historic record...
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I'm surprised that Onceler fell for this bullshit.
Wall Street set to award record pay: report
Workers at 23 top investment banks, hedge funds, asset managers and stock and commodities exchanges can expect to earn even more than they did at the peak year of 2007, according to an analysis by the Wall Street Journal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091014/ts_alt_afp/useconomyfinancecompaniespay_20091014135235
Still on the Job, but at Half the Pay
In recent decades, layoffs were the standard procedure for shrinking labor costs. Reducing the wages of those who remained on the job was considered demoralizing and risky: the best workers would jump to another employer. But now pay cuts, sometimes the result of downgrades in rank or shortened workweeks, are occurring more frequently than at any time since the Great Depression.
State workers in Georgia are taking home smaller paychecks. So are the tens of thousands of employees in California’s public university system. The steel company Nucor and the technology giant Hewlett-Packard have embraced the practice. So have several airlines and many small businesses.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics does not track pay cuts, but it suggests they are reflected in the steep decline of another statistic: total weekly pay for production workers, pilots among them, representing 80 percent of the work force. That index has fallen for nine consecutive months, an unprecedented string over the 44 years the bureau has calculated weekly pay, capturing the large number of people out of work, those working fewer hours and those whose wages have been cut. The old record was a two-month decline, during the 1981-1982 recession.
-- more at link
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/business/economy/14income.html?_r=1
Wall Street set to award record pay: report
Workers at 23 top investment banks, hedge funds, asset managers and stock and commodities exchanges can expect to earn even more than they did at the peak year of 2007, according to an analysis by the Wall Street Journal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091014/ts_alt_afp/useconomyfinancecompaniespay_20091014135235
Still on the Job, but at Half the Pay
In recent decades, layoffs were the standard procedure for shrinking labor costs. Reducing the wages of those who remained on the job was considered demoralizing and risky: the best workers would jump to another employer. But now pay cuts, sometimes the result of downgrades in rank or shortened workweeks, are occurring more frequently than at any time since the Great Depression.
State workers in Georgia are taking home smaller paychecks. So are the tens of thousands of employees in California’s public university system. The steel company Nucor and the technology giant Hewlett-Packard have embraced the practice. So have several airlines and many small businesses.
The Bureau of Labor Statistics does not track pay cuts, but it suggests they are reflected in the steep decline of another statistic: total weekly pay for production workers, pilots among them, representing 80 percent of the work force. That index has fallen for nine consecutive months, an unprecedented string over the 44 years the bureau has calculated weekly pay, capturing the large number of people out of work, those working fewer hours and those whose wages have been cut. The old record was a two-month decline, during the 1981-1982 recession.
-- more at link
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/business/economy/14income.html?_r=1
BAC, I can't even debate you on this. You are easily one of the smartest people on this board, but your statements about the market & the economy can be jaw-dropping. The fact that you do not recognize the interconnectedness of Wall Street & Main Street is something I don't even know how to address; it is as though you are saying "I can't believe Onceler thinks the sky is blue."
All I can do is shake my head. If Wall Street fails, Main Street fails, period. There is no "oh, that's just your opinion" on this. It's the height of ignorance to suggest otherwise....
All I can do is shake my head. If Wall Street fails, Main Street fails, period. There is no "oh, that's just your opinion" on this. It's the height of ignorance to suggest otherwise....
It may be true that if Wall Street fails Main Street fails (aside: the whole "Main Street" thing bothers the shit out of me) but the converse isn't necessarily true. Just because the DOW is at 10,000 doesn't mean shit for the average person. Have you looked at median income statistics over the past decade?
Additionally, saying that because the DOW has bounced back means the bailouts were a good thing is pretty short-sighted and ignores a whole host of policy alternatives that could have achieved the same policy goals without funneling trillions of dollars to Wall Street firms so that they could use the money to engage in the same behavior that got us fucked in the first place all while paying billions and billions in "bonuses" with about zero meaningful oversight or reform and while the rest of the country is in pretty tough shape economically.
I don't necessarily agree with BAC, but I sure as shit don't agree with you.
Unfortunately, the converse IS true. All of those companies that do all of the hiring? They won't budge an inch unless they see consistent gains in the market, and a healthier looking market overall.
I don't even know how to respond to comments on this thread & other threads that jobs are still being lost even though the market is doing well. It's not like the market rises in the morning & companies decide to hire that afternoon; that's why they call jobs a "lagging indicator." Companies plan layoffs & hires this quarter for the next quarter or the quarter after, and base much of that decision-making on not just their own balance sheet, but on how the market & other indicators are doing.
Ergo, a big rise in the market this month might not show up in the jobs market for 3-6 months, at minimum. BUT, a healthy market is instrumental in setting up that long-term hiring.
Again - these are just facts. These are not my opinions.