Yes. We can see it happening each time there is a crisis such as the virus or recession. Things we normally don't want we are willing to make exceptions because we don't think there is any other solution. So we see so-called fiscal conservatives pass $2 trillion spending bills and stepping in to require GM to manufacture whatever we need.
I'll leave this here
- Thread starter TTQ64
- Start date
Yes. We can see it happening each time there is a crisis such as the virus or recession. Things we normally don't want we are willing to make exceptions because we don't think there is any other solution. So we see so-called fiscal conservatives pass $2 trillion spending bills and stepping in to require GM to manufacture whatever we need.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Agreed. It's more appropriate, IMO, for the Governors to gather together to pool resources while the Feds focus upon international treaties and national defense.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
BTW, I hope everyone here is registered to vote. 
Iolo/Penderyn
Verified User
Child, as I frequently point out, over here we live under normal capitalism, not your nutty archaic pretence. You don't know what socialism is, kid, because you are brainwashed. Stop quacking. Socialism is control by the working class. Learn, mark and inwardly digest.
According to your earlier comments that makes you less educated because you live under a capitalist system.
Socialism is government ownership of the means of production and distribution. The working class does not control anything more in a socialist system than under capitalism--nobody believes that trash. You think Chinese or North Korean working class controls anything under their communist political system which requires a socialist economic system?
You live under "normal" capitalism? So do we. You have been believing the distorted views presented by your masters (the stupid "masters" concept you refer to illustrates the perverted view of the U. S. you have been brainwashed to believe).
Iolo/Penderyn
Verified User
How on earth can control by the capitalist state be other than capitalism? Any government is the central committee of the ruling class, and the ruling class is made up of the thieves who exploit our work, as you know. Some capitalist countries pretend to be Christian, others socialist, and it makes bugger all difference. You don't live under normal capitalism because you spend most of your resources on brainwashing the working people and thieving abroad. Very few capitalisms can afford to let medical profiteers charge twice as much just to let people die and so on, but your mugs were at one time allowed more than a crust because4 you'd had stolen land and slave labour to live on, as you know, so many think they'll be rich exploiters one day.
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You've been reading too much Marxist propaganda.
Iolo/Penderyn
Verified User
Just observing the world with an open mind, matey.
Just the crazies at Trump rallies, They earned it.
Scut Farkus
Verified User
that's it, keep doubling down. keep losing, political deafo.
Through Marxist eyes which interprets everything through an economic perspective. Talk about socialism being a system where workers rule is pure utopian that has never existed except in theory. Talking about our "masters" is for people who see themselves as powerless being controlled by outside forces (ruling class, astrology, illuminati.....).
Iolo/Penderyn
Verified User
Expains everything by the way people work and get cheated of the proceeds, because it affects everything else, obviously. Workers' control has existed three times and has been destroyed each time by your murder-gangs, as well you know. Your master have brainwashed you well, blackleg.
Expains everything by the way people work and get cheated of the proceeds, because it affects everything else, obviously. Workers' control has existed three times and has been destroyed each time by your murder-gangs, as well you know. Your master have brainwashed you well, blackleg.
It explains everything only if a person accepts simplistic explanations that some evil force is to blame for all the world's problems. It saves us the time of having to learn more complicated explanations.
Marxism served as the master for many who accepted the evil force explanation until they saw how it worked and abandoned it in most nations. Even places like China have made major modifications to more private ownership and free market reforms. I don't see any worker control in Venequela.
cawacko
Well-known member
I've enjoyed reading the exchange and maybe my knowledge of history is lacking here but when has worker control ever existed in any country? I look in my lifetime and we saw the failure of Eastern European Communism, Chinese communism, Cuba, Venezuela etc. To your point about China they still have a Communist government structure but once they implemented free market reforms they brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. (Not that I'm suggesting state sponsored capitalism like they have). Even progressives in the U.S. want to be like the small Scandinavian countries but those countries flirted with socialism and it failed and they went back to free markets (just along with higher taxes and more generous welfare state).
I'm not sure when workers exercised control, but whenever it was "we" destroyed it with "our" murder gangs. It more likely was some kind of experiment in union control or more limited example like early Soviet workers councils, Seattle (1919), etc. Stuff from Howard Zinn's Marxist "A People's History of the United States."
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Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
It hasn't. Socialism, Marxism and Communism are interesting ideals that always fail above the tribal/village level. IMO, mainly due to human nature as in the saying "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
That said, Labor and Management are symbiotic just like Left and Right are symbiotic. If either is too powerful, the symbiosis breaks down and the organisms begin to die.
Carl Sagan once said "An organism at war with itself is doomed". If a corporation or a nation are thought of as an organism, then when it wars on itself such labor and management crushing each other or one crushing the other, then it will die. The UAW in the 1970s is an example of labor killing the corporation. What we are seeing in America now is management's dominance of labor and reaping the vast majority of the fruits for itself is also killing the corporations.
Iolo/Penderyn
Verified User
Rubbish - nothing to do with evil - simply evolution, obviously. Just as feudalism replaced earlier systems and was itself replaced by capitalism, so capitalism must be replaced if the species is to survive. Marxism, like Christianity, has long been abandoned by most capitalist states because it lacks conviction as an excuse for robbing those who do the work. If you supposed there was workers' control in Venezuela you are out of your tiny mind, matey. See how the brainwashing works? You just ignore everything that doesn't suit your 'opinion'.
That was exactly my point. You said socialism was control by the workers, but that sure isn't true in Venezuela, China, North Korea, Cuba, or any other socialist nation including the former Soviet Union or Eastern bloc nations.
Nobody is brainwashed when they state facts about socialism which you apparently agree with about Venezuela. You've gone from "worker control" to agreeing with my point.