Imagine No Religion...

The words of John Lennon resound with seculars and atheists everywhere, and it is often a point articulated on this very board, that mankind would somehow be 'better off' without Religion. I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine it, Johnny. Religion, or to a greater extent, human spirituality, is the fundamental thing which separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. One can argue which came first, cognitive thought or spiritual belief, but the fact remains, the two are interconnected and inseparable, and have been so for a very long time. Whether it is through our cognitive thoughts that we created religion, or religion is responsible for blessing us with cognitive thought, both are the basis for humanity, civilization, society.

It is through Religion, man developed societal structures, established boundaries and guidelines for how a civilized society functions. Through human spiritual belief, we are able to recognize morality, we understand what ethics are, we develop trust and faith, and we form the basis for our principles. All of this is what enabled man to emerge from the jungle and form civilizations. Without this core of human spirituality, humans would behave much like other animals in nature behave, with the only 'morality' being to advance the species and self-preservation. Humans have a natural inclination, because of our cognitive thought, to enjoy personal pleasure. Considerations of consequence, or detriment to others, always takes a back seat to natural human desire. Without boundaries, what would happen to that primal human desire?

When you go to a zoo, you see all kinds of animals not in their natural habitat. They are in a controlled environment, there are barriers, boundaries, limitations... there is a structure to their environment. Over time, the animals learn and adapt to the surroundings, they are well fed, and everyone enjoys a pleasant day at the zoo. Would it be the same place if the animals were in their natural habitat and you were walking through their domain? Would the animals behave the same? Of course, you can imagine, you'd probably not survive such a trip. The zoo in this analogy, represents Religion, and the animals in the zoo, are humans. It is through our structure, culture, rules, boundaries and limitations, we maintain a civilized society. Imagine no Religion? Imagine going through the Zoo of Life with no zookeepers, no fences or barriers, and no animal food. Same thing!

Now, are all Religions good? Has Religion always been good for man? Is Religion sometimes perverted? Does Religion sometimes cause great death and destruction? These are all perfectly legitimate questions, but by the same token, the conditions at every zoo are not always ideal. The flaw in Religion is not because of Religion, it is because of MAN! It is ALWAYS because of something MAN has misconstrued or misunderstood regarding Religion or human spirituality. It is because man is flawed, not Religion. It is because of human attributes of greed and gluttony, men often pervert and use Religion to perpetrate evil on other men. Still, without Religion and human spirituality, we're still swing in trees collecting daily bananas.

Our Founding Fathers didn't have the 'wisdom' of entertainers telling them to imagine a world without Religion. That line of thinking was pretty much unheard of in the mid 18th century, and would have likely had you committed, should you express such a thing. Washington said a nation could not stand without God, most of the states had official state religions. The philosophy used to unite us as a nation, was based on a human spiritual belief in a Creator, who endowed mankind with certain rights and they can't be taken away by man. Everything we are, as a united nation, is based on the foundational premise that all men are Created by a Creator, and we are all Created equally. The most important right our Founding Fathers believed we had, was the Freedom of Religion. The First Amendment spells out our fundamental right to worship freely, a right we didn't previously have under the King of England.

A most unfortunate choice of words, was Jefferson's quote to Danbury Baptists, the old "wall of separation between church and state." He should have more correctly stated his vision as a wall between religious dogma and government policy. That is what was intended. Through the years, our society has seen fit to continually adopt and apply an Atheistic philosophy to government, due to a complete misunderstanding of Jefferson. Atheism is the literal antithesis of what our nation is principally founded on. While the 1st Amendment does protect the Atheists right to not believe in the entity which the nation believes has endowed him with that right, it doesn't say a thing about making that view the prevalent philosophy of government.

Meh, whatever trips your trigger Dixie. I sincerly hope you enjoy your spiritual activities and that they help you to grow as a person. I really do mean that. Just please don't force me to share them with you as, nothing personal, I'm just not really interested in them.
 
No it certainly didn't repeal the 1st Amendment, FOOL!

This is the first and probably the only time you'll catch me saying this: Jarod is correct. The 14th Amendment applies the 1st Amendment to the states, which means the establishment clause is just as relevant at the state/local/city level of government as at the Federal level.
 
Actually, bravo, many states already had an established official religion. Pennsylvania was Quaker, Virginia or Maryland was Methodist, this was a common practice of the time, and the Founding Fathers certainly weren't intent on changing that. They didn't intend on the Federal government telling the States which religion they could adopt, but the primary reason for the 'wall of separation' idea, was to prevent government intrusion into religion. It was to protect religion from government, not to protect government from religion.
It was meant to do both Dixie.
 
You can cling to this silly illogical notion the rest of your life, it won't make it true. The attitudes and behaviors which facilitate TRUST and any consideration of 'mutually beneficial cooperation' are rooted in human spirituality. If what you stated were true, all animals in the animal kingdom would practice morality, and they certainly don't. We would see larger animals showing compassion to their prey, bears would practice capture and release... this doesn't happen in nature.

Animals do have forms of morality/social/ group behaviors. Animals cooperate to hunt for instance. Sexual mores can be seen in the deference to the alpha couple.

There's nothing illogical in anything i have written. You just hate the mutual benefit part because the religion you love is elitist and seeks mind control over all else.
 
I never said it did... It's clearly over your head! It did nor repeal the 1st, it expanded the 1st's reach to the states.

The 1st already reached the States. It applied to every American in every state. I think you are fucking ignorant of the Constitution. Maybe you should go READ the 14th Amendment, and then come back and tell us what it says, instead of pretending that it says what you need it to say to make you right in this stupid debate.

The 1st Amendment says nothing about stripping government of anything related to religious belief. You might, in your profound ignorance, believe that's what it says, but it simply doesn't say that.
 
I don't really care what the constitution says. I will fight as hard as I can to prevent religious beliefs from becoming law.
 
No. read it again. I said exsactly the opposite of what you said.

No, you said the exact same thing that I said.

Here....
Jarhead, I really do try to read what you say and apply logic, but it's just not possible to do sometimes. Religion is organized spirituality. Not all spirituality is religiously organized. That doesn't change the fact that Religion is representative of spiritual belief for MANY individuals.

Read the bold underlined part... what am I saying? Isn't it the same thing you said? I think it is, sounds the same to me, but then, I have a normal brain and yours is retarded, so no telling what you read there.... but I certainly did say it, and it was the exact same thing as you said. Now go take your meds and shut up.
 
I don't really care what the constitution says. I will fight as hard as I can to prevent religious beliefs from becoming law.

Many religious beliefs are already law. Not murdering people is a religious belief, it's found in the 10 Commandments. Not stealing is also a religious belief... found in the same 10 Commandments. So your campaign to expunge anything 'religious' from the law, is going to be quite an impossible feat.
 
Many religious beliefs are already law. Not murdering people is a religious belief, it's found in the 10 Commandments. Not stealing is also a religious belief... found in the same 10 Commandments. So your campaign to expunge anything 'religious' from the law, is going to be quite an impossible feat.

I assume that when you say something is a religious belief that you are suggesting that were it not for religion these 'laws' would not exist?
Wrong, sunbeam.
These laws have been ADOPTED by various religions independantly over thousands of years. They represent certain behaviour principles without which society could not exist.
Atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, jews, muslims, confucians all developed at different times in history and developed their own rules according to what worked and the ten commandments, in different representations form the basis of all human society.
Religion will be expunged when education is taken from the hands of the rich and powerful and given to the people.
 
Here is another fallacy in Dixie's argument...

I belong to and subscribe to no religion, yet even if it were legal I would not murder anyone, I follow my own code that is stricter than the law and I give a lot to charity!
 
I assume that when you say something is a religious belief that you are suggesting that were it not for religion these 'laws' would not exist?
Wrong, sunbeam.
These laws have been ADOPTED by various religions independantly over thousands of years. They represent certain behaviour principles without which society could not exist.
Atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, jews, muslims, confucians all developed at different times in history and developed their own rules according to what worked and the ten commandments, in different representations form the basis of all human society.
Religion will be expunged when education is taken from the hands of the rich and powerful and given to the people.

Well, first of all, you have no evidence to suggest that not killing people came from anything other than human spiritual beliefs. Other animals kill each other all the time, they have absolutely no guilt for doing so, no remorse, they feel no sympathy for their victims, and it is known as the circle of life or natural selection. This is how the other animals on Earth behave, except for us. Curious, we can add that to the box of uniqueness, with Religion, Spirituality, and cognitive thought. You try to point to Atheists and others who have adopted a spiritually-based morality, and claim that means it's not a spiritually-based morality. But this is a point you have failed to prove, and can't prove. You are denying the obvious in favor of the ridiculous and absurd, and closing your mind to any possibility you may be wrong. That is sheer intolerance on display.
 
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