Inhumanity & School

uscitizen said:
Many teens and adults seem to think they need to run others down to boost themselves up.
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Basic primate behavior: chimps and gorillas do the same thing. Actually, many pack predators do it.

Of course, chimps and gorillas don't have our advantages, either. Theoretically, their ability to empathize with their fellow primates is much less than ours. In short, it's less excusable in our case.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Basic primate behavior: chimps and gorillas do the same thing. Actually, many pack predators do it.

Of course, chimps and gorillas don't have our advantages, either. Theoretically, their ability to empathize with their fellow primates is much less than ours. In short, it's less excusable in our case.
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Ornot, do you believe it is in our nature, or do you believe that there is no such thing as "human nature" at any level?
 
Id like to apologise to John Whitley if I knew him. I feel sure Id like to be his friend if I knew him today. I sure hope victims of this type of abuse know, at least later in life, that it really does not reflect on them as a person.

Like I said, I have a lot of respect for the guy, looking back.
 
Jarod said:
Id like to apologise to John Whitley if I knew him. I feel sure Id like to be his friend if I knew him today. I sure hope victims of this type of abuse know, at least later in life, that it really does not reflect on them as a person.

Like I said, I have a lot of respect for the guy, looking back.
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Jarod, if this happened in high school, go to your highschool reunion.com, or maybe it's just reunion.com? and see if he's put his contact info there. If not, look around for him on the net, try peoplefinders.com. You might be able to reconnect with him, or at the very least, find out something about how he is doing.
 
I never joined in with the group on such things, of course I was a strange loner as well ;) but not the worst one so I was not targeted by the whole group. But shunned a bit because I did not pick on the worst kid with the group.

I take pride in being me and not going along with the masses because of peer pressure.
 
Darla said:
Jarod, if this happened in high school, go to your highschool reunion.com, or maybe it's just reunion.com? and see if he's put his contact info there. If not, look around for him on the net, try peoplefinders.com. You might be able to reconnect with him, or at the very least, find out something about how he is doing.
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It was like 4th grade. I did look, just now, and could not find him, there are lots of John Whitleys.
 
Darla said:
Ornot, do you believe it is in our nature, or do you believe that there is no such thing as "human nature" at any level?
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Ah, now that's the 64 Billion Dollar Question, in'it?

Most anthropologists dislike the term "human nature" for a lot of different reasons. Mostly because it leads people to think of a set of inflexible laws or unchanging truths. We aren't inflexible or unchanging in anything, however.

Basically, I believe we really are primates. We share a lot of instinctive reactions and drives with our primate cousins, especially the chimpanzees. These built in needs and reactions are immensely strong but very simple: desire for security, need for approval, hunger for status within a group, and so on. They also vary from individual to individual, probably more so among us than among other primates. Our individual emotions, opinions and personalities grow over time as we try to satisfy these instinctive needs.

The upshot is that yes, I think these behaviors are entirely natural but no, I don't think they're inevitable. Humans have the luxury of consciously changing the way we satisfy our own inner monkey.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Ah, now that's the 64 Billion Dollar Question, in'it?

Most anthropologists dislike the term "human nature" for a lot of different reasons. Mostly because it leads people to think of a set of inflexible laws or unchanging truths. We aren't inflexible or unchanging in anything, however.

Basically, I believe we really are primates. We share a lot of instinctive reactions and drives with our primate cousins, especially the chimpanzees. These built in needs and reactions are immensely strong but very simple: desire for security, need for approval, hunger for status within a group, and so on. They also vary from individual to individual, probably more so among us than among other primates. Our individual emotions, opinions and personalities grow over time as we try to satisfy these instinctive needs.

The upshot is that yes, I think these behaviors are entirely natural but no, I don't think they're inevitable. Humans have the luxury of consciously changing the way we satisfy our own inner monkey.
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Thanks. You have helped. I have been having this discussion, of sorts, I mean, that's a grandiose word for it, with someone. because I had brought up the Lord of the Flies, and how this kind of pack behavior in schools reminds me of that, and they dismissed it out of hand because they "simply do not believe in, nor reconize human nature". And i wasn't trying to say that everything is dependent on human nature, I just think it's more complex, and you've described it very well. I knew that you would! :)
 
When I was in the 3rd grade there was this red-headed country boy who was asked to count out loud.......he bagan and got to "thirty-eight, thirty-nine, farty, farty-one, farty-two, ..." Everyone laughed though I did feel sorry for him. He quit school during his 4th grade year and that was it. Now he owns his own logging/construction company and is worth much more than I am. Not bad for a third grade education.
 
Darla said:
Thanks. You have helped. I have been having this discussion, of sorts, I mean, that's a grandiose word for it, with someone. because I had brought up the Lord of the Flies, and how this kind of pack behavior in schools reminds me of that, and they dismissed it out of hand because they "simply do not believe in, nor reconize human nature". And i wasn't trying to say that everything is dependent on human nature, I just think it's more complex, and you've described it very well. I knew that you would! :)
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You know, I think I may have done you a disservice by being too brief. While it's true that we are tremendously adapatable and our behavior is conditioned by our culture to an enromous degree it is NOT true that we are infinitely adaptable. That is to say there are some things that simply won't work, no matter how hard you try.

Our primate ancestry imposes some limits on what social experiments we can try. Those boundaries are hard to see -- until they're transgressed -- but they're definitely there. This is what's wrong with both dogmatic Marxism and dogmatic Libertarianism: both are based on models of human behavior that are outside the parameters of what humans can do. Remarkably similar models, ironically enough.
 
Darla said:
I understand.

Could you imagine if we all started telling our high school horror stories? Damo would have to call in a team of psychiatrists.
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On my classmates.com profile under "If I had to do HS again, I put 1st "I wouldn't," and 2nd "I'd have dated less."

HHHAAAAAAAAA, my HS friends will get the joke. The joke is I only dated one girl in HS briefly, and she turned out to be a psycho fruitloop.
 
Darla said:
Jarod, if this happened in high school, go to your highschool reunion.com, or maybe it's just reunion.com? and see if he's put his contact info there. If not, look around for him on the net, try peoplefinders.com. You might be able to reconnect with him, or at the very least, find out something about how he is doing.
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I'm thinking of a scene from Billy Madison...
 
Our primate ancestry imposes some limits on what social experiments we can try. Those boundaries are hard to see -- until they're transgressed -- but they're definitely there. This is what's wrong with both dogmatic Marxism and dogmatic Libertarianism: both are based on models of human behavior that are outside the parameters of what humans can do. Remarkably similar models, ironically enough.

I disagree with that. Marxism and libertarianism can definitley operate on smaller levels and the point in which they would not is unknown. You may also be underestimating the malleability of human behavior.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Our primate ancestry imposes some limits on what social experiments we can try. Those boundaries are hard to see -- until they're transgressed -- but they're definitely there. This is what's wrong with both dogmatic Marxism and dogmatic Libertarianism: both are based on models of human behavior that are outside the parameters of what humans can do. Remarkably similar models, ironically enough.

I disagree with that. Marxism and libertarianism can definitley operate on smaller levels and the point in which they would not is unknown. You may also be underestimating the malleability of human behavior.
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But both systems are explicitly intended for post-agrarian, mercantilist or industrialist societies, NOT "smaller levels" of society. That's exactly why they don't work. There's simply too much diversity of opinion/behavior in human societies at such population density and too much competition for status.
 
Neither have really been done experimentally we cannot know for certain. Many said the same about liberal democracy. Communism has never been truly pursued nor have Anarcho-capitalism which is what I assume you mean when you say dogmatic libertarianism.
 
I've always wondered why people would wax rhapsodic about those years. When they called and asked if I wanted to go to my reunion all I could think was. "I don't know these people. I didn't then, I didn't like them, they showed no real sign of liking me all that much either... Why would I want to pay money to revisit that?"
 
I remember in elementary school and middle school I was constantly picked on. I woke up and didn't want to go to school and cried often. My grades dropped as soon as it all picked up in 4th grade... I've averaged like B to C ever since. Of course, now I realize that I pretty much acted like an idiot the whole time, considered everyone in the world wrong except for me, and refused to talk to people, which probably contributed to it signifigantly.

I was also one of the "follower" geeks who had to gather around this one big "leader" geek. I really despise such people now, ironically enough. The weird thing about being in groups like that is that no ones friends with you except for the "leader". I don't know why people choose to do that and I don't know why I did. I was just very awkward and looking for somewhere to fit in. Also, my voice before puberty was just ridiculous and made everything I said sound like I was retarded, whether or not it was the most intelligent, eloquent series of words ever produced by a person.

Of course, everyone didn't have to laugh at me. It was pretty obvious that little of that was my fault. But the way I responded to it was my fault. I became angry if someone rejected me, and if I did something that annoyed someone and became embarrassed by it I would just do it over and over again, as if to punish them for embarrassing me.

My high school years were about a gajillion times better. I grew out of the entire socialist I must save the world phase and became an independent liberal. Of course, the one big thing that's always dominated high school is the girl I've liked since sophomore year who won't ever like me back. Why, have you ever felt a cold shock whenever someone enters the room? And ironically, if you haven't seen them for a while it seems like the happiest moment of your life. Then, of course, you realize that they came here and could hardly care less that you feel happy to see them, like the fire in the sun (Bob Dylan quote, guys). And honestly, the woman absolutely despises me, and I really can't blame her.
 
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