IPCC Report

[Rune]

I did, AND some of the responses. The wind turbine plan alone might cost between $20 - 30 trillion dollars.

It's a nice dream, but it's written like a dream. Very few practical considerations - particularly as they relate to the business community & the economy - are taken into account.

And nowhere did I see any verbiage whatsoever about how we get China, India, Japan et al. to change what they do on a wholescale basis as well.

Damnit man do some more research. China is far surpassing the US in alternative energy research and production. They are literally laughing at our puny efforts and seizing an opportunity we are letting pass by.

The Three Gorges Dam is a hydroelectric dam that spans the Yangtze River by the town of Sandouping, located in Yiling District, Yichang, Hubei province, China. The Three Gorges Dam is the world's largest power station in terms of installed capacity (22,500 MW)

Japanese engineers recently invented a new type of windmill a full 50% inprovement upon traditional designs. You just don't know what you are talking about this time thingie.

If you are worried about India research the Tata company, whose ultra-efficient cars may soon be available for sale here.

http://cars.tatamotors.com/tata-indica/index.html

 

[Socrtease]

Damnit man do some more research. China is far surpassing the US in alternative energy research and production. They are literally laughing at our puny efforts and seizing an opportunity we are letting pass by.

The Three Gorges Dam is a hydroelectric dam that spans the Yangtze River by the town of Sandouping, located in Yiling District, Yichang, Hubei province, China. The Three Gorges Dam is the world's largest power station in terms of installed capacity (22,500 MW)

Japanese engineers recently invented a new type of windmill a full 50% inprovement upon traditional designs. You just don't know what you are talking about this time thingie.

If you are worried about India research the Tata company, whose ultra-efficient cars may soon be available for sale here.

http://cars.tatamotors.com/tata-indica/index.html

They are still churning out more airborne pollutants than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. In stead of being the mouth piece for China, address the fact that they are far and away the greatest polluters on the planet. They are far and away the largest consumer of coal in the world. They generated 1.95 trillion kilowatt-hours per year, or 68.7% of its electricity from coal as of 2006. Coal consumption as of 2011 was up 9%. This ecowatch article shows that China consumes almost as much coal as the rest of the world.

FROM THE ARTICLE.

Coal consumption in China grew more than 9 percent in 2011, continuing its upward trend for the 12th consecutive year, according to newly released international data.
China’s coal use grew by 325 million tons in 2011, accounting for 87 percent of the 374 million ton global increase in coal use, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Of the 2.9 billion tons of global coal demand growth since 2000, China accounted for 2.3 billion tons (82 percent). China now accounts for 47 percent of global coal consumption—almost as much as the entire rest of the world combined.

Yessir they are WAY ahead of us.

 

[Rune]

They are still churning out more airborne pollutants than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. In stead of being the mouth piece for China, address the fact that they are far and away the greatest polluters on the planet. They are far and away the largest consumer of coal in the world. They generated 1.95 trillion kilowatt-hours per year, or 68.7% of its electricity from coal as of 2006. Coal consumption as of 2011 was up 9%. This ecowatch article shows that China consumes almost as much coal as the rest of the world.

FROM THE ARTICLE.

Coal consumption in China grew more than 9 percent in 2011, continuing its upward trend for the 12th consecutive year, according to newly released international data.
China’s coal use grew by 325 million tons in 2011, accounting for 87 percent of the 374 million ton global increase in coal use, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Of the 2.9 billion tons of global coal demand growth since 2000, China accounted for 2.3 billion tons (82 percent). China now accounts for 47 percent of global coal consumption—almost as much as the entire rest of the world combined.

Yessir they are WAY ahead of us.

From reality;
1.we sell them most of the coal
2. They are by far larger than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
3. They built the largest power station in the WORLD and it uses no input fuel at all.
4. They are researching and developing alternative energy sources faster than the US by an order of magnitude.
5. They are developing safe thorium reactors to replace the imported coal ASAP.
6. I am the last person who should ever be accused of being a China Apologist. Since you are an infrequent poster I will ignore your ignorant insult for now.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

From reality;
1.we sell them most of the coal
2. They are by far larger than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
3. They built the largest power station in the WORLD and it uses no input fuel at all.
4. They are researching and developing alternative energy sources faster than the US by an order of magnitude.
5. They are developing safe thorium reactors to replace the imported coal ASAP.
6. I am the last person who should ever be accused of being a China Apologist. Since you are an infrequent poster I will ignore your ignorant insult for now.

Most of that is not really relevant to the discussion. Yeah - they're the biggest country, and that's why they have the biggest output. But the fact that they have the biggest output is what matters.

Again - if we go carbon-free by 2030, what difference will it make, if they do not?

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

They are still churning out more airborne pollutants than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. In stead of being the mouth piece for China, address the fact that they are far and away the greatest polluters on the planet. They are far and away the largest consumer of coal in the world. They generated 1.95 trillion kilowatt-hours per year, or 68.7% of its electricity from coal as of 2006. Coal consumption as of 2011 was up 9%. This ecowatch article shows that China consumes almost as much coal as the rest of the world.

FROM THE ARTICLE.

Coal consumption in China grew more than 9 percent in 2011, continuing its upward trend for the 12th consecutive year, according to newly released international data.
China’s coal use grew by 325 million tons in 2011, accounting for 87 percent of the 374 million ton global increase in coal use, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. Of the 2.9 billion tons of global coal demand growth since 2000, China accounted for 2.3 billion tons (82 percent). China now accounts for 47 percent of global coal consumption—almost as much as the entire rest of the world combined.

Yessir they are WAY ahead of us.

From reality;
1.we sell them most of the coal
2. They are by far larger than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
3. They built the largest power station in the WORLD and it uses no input fuel at all.
4. They are researching and developing alternative energy sources faster than the US by an order of magnitude.
5. They are developing safe thorium reactors to replace the imported coal ASAP.
6. I am the last person who should ever be accused of being a China Apologist. Since you are an infrequent poster I will ignore your ignorant insult for now.

It's interesting, I am just not sure of the basic premise. IT seems like some are saying that since China is doing it, we should do it too. We can't change everyone's behavior, so let's not change our own. That's just stupid and childish to me.

Considering what is at stake, how about we step forward and say, this is what we're going to do, and set the pace? Lead by moral example rather than be childish about it.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Whiner isn't reading my posts, but here's the deal w/ why "being a leader on the issue" isn't enough: trying to get off of carbon by 2030 will require ENORMOUS sacrifice, likely lead to widespread job loss, cost trillions and likely lead to a great deal of economic pain. Not to mention how the cost will affect other gov't programs that I'm sure many on this thread hold dear.

If we do that, if we commit to a moonshot x 1,000 effort, we had really better be sure that our "moral leadership" on this issue will inspire those sentimental leaders in China, Japan, India & the rest to follow suit. Because if they don't, we'll have made that sacrifice for very little in return.

 

[tekkychick]

Thing1, do you really give up doing something because your neighbor won't give up doing it?

"Gee my neighbor will just keep on murdering prostitutes, so no point in me giving it up"

Have you ever read "The Sheep Looked Up"? At the end of the book, as the USA was in flames, basically an academic was asked how to cure the world of all its shortages. The answer was "Get rid of the 200 million most wasteful people on the planet, and that's happening now"....

We should absolutely commit our country to reducing carbon emissions. Can we guarantee others will go along? nope. But that's why we meet with them and discuss it and have treaties and whatnot - to try to get them to do it. China IS going into alternative energy in a big way; others will do it eventually as well. You really want to be last kid on the block to change?

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

You say it's a sacrifice - the longer we wait, the harder it will be; if we do it now, we'll have a technology leadership that will reduce the pain.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

Thing1, do you really give up doing something because your neighbor won't give up doing it?

"Gee my neighbor will just keep on murdering prostitutes, so no point in me giving it up"

Have you ever read "The Sheep Looked Up"? At the end of the book, as the USA was in flames, basically an academic was asked how to cure the world of all its shortages. The answer was "Get rid of the 200 million most wasteful people on the planet, and that's happening now"....

We should absolutely commit our country to reducing carbon emissions. Can we guarantee others will go along? nope. But that's why we meet with them and discuss it and have treaties and whatnot - to try to get them to do it. China IS going into alternative energy in a big way; others will do it eventually as well. You really want to be last kid on the block to change?

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

You say it's a sacrifice - the longer we wait, the harder it will be; if we do it now, we'll have a technology leadership that will reduce the pain.

Excellent post. I just want to add one thing I haven't seen anyone mention.

China only recently surpassed us as the world's biggest polluter (CO2 emissions). I mean for decades we trashed this freaking planet, we're number one! We were entitled to everything without a thought or a by-your-leave.

Do we own no responsibility for our past actions which are directly (obviously) impacting climate change right now? Do we just trash the place, say, well, we're done, fuck you, now it's your responsibility to change your behavior?

Really?

Children. Absolute children. Selfish, tantrum-throwing, red-faced, little children.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Thing1, do you really give up doing something because your neighbor won't give up doing it?

"Gee my neighbor will just keep on murdering prostitutes, so no point in me giving it up"

Have you ever read "The Sheep Looked Up"? At the end of the book, as the USA was in flames, basically an academic was asked how to cure the world of all its shortages. The answer was "Get rid of the 200 million most wasteful people on the planet, and that's happening now"....

We should absolutely commit our country to reducing carbon emissions. Can we guarantee others will go along? nope. But that's why we meet with them and discuss it and have treaties and whatnot - to try to get them to do it. China IS going into alternative energy in a big way; others will do it eventually as well. You really want to be last kid on the block to change?

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

You say it's a sacrifice - the longer we wait, the harder it will be; if we do it now, we'll have a technology leadership that will reduce the pain.

This is a mischaracterization. I'm all for transitioning to green - but only in a way that is responsible & practical. If many people lose their jobs, and the actual return as far as environmental quality is minimal - no, I'm not for that.

We can take it to an extreme that I'm sure you wouldn't agree with. We could outlaw all carbon emissions today, and corporations and people would have to change their habits radically asap. Business would be put on hold in the meantime, and just about everyone would lose their job.

Now, I know this is ridiculous - but transitioning by 2030 with our CURRENT technology would be a level of pain that is more comparable to that than to the status quo.

Anytime there is pain, you have to weigh it against potential benefit. And sorry, but this thread is about global warming. If you're advocating this kind of radical change and only "hoping" China will join, I think your acceptance of the pain it would cause borders on immoral.

 

[cawacko]

Thing1, do you really give up doing something because your neighbor won't give up doing it?

"Gee my neighbor will just keep on murdering prostitutes, so no point in me giving it up"

Have you ever read "The Sheep Looked Up"? At the end of the book, as the USA was in flames, basically an academic was asked how to cure the world of all its shortages. The answer was "Get rid of the 200 million most wasteful people on the planet, and that's happening now"....

We should absolutely commit our country to reducing carbon emissions. Can we guarantee others will go along? nope. But that's why we meet with them and discuss it and have treaties and whatnot - to try to get them to do it. China IS going into alternative energy in a big way; others will do it eventually as well. You really want to be last kid on the block to change?

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

You say it's a sacrifice - the longer we wait, the harder it will be; if we do it now, we'll have a technology leadership that will reduce the pain.

tk, just curious to your opinion(s) here. Do you think there will be economic fallout if our country makes a sudden change to reducing carbon emissions. And if you believe there will be economic fallout how much would be ok in your opinion to achieve our reduced emission goals?

(Again, not trying to play gotcha or be an *ss with these questions just curious as to your thoughts)

 

[Rune]

Most of that is not really relevant to the discussion. Yeah - they're the biggest country, and that's why they have the biggest output. But the fact that they have the biggest output is what matters.

Again - if we go carbon-free by 2030, what difference will it make, if they do not?

The plan includes them.

Why did you lie about reading the article?

 

[Socrtease]

Thing1, do you really give up doing something because your neighbor won't give up doing it?

"Gee my neighbor will just keep on murdering prostitutes, so no point in me giving it up"

Have you ever read "The Sheep Looked Up"? At the end of the book, as the USA was in flames, basically an academic was asked how to cure the world of all its shortages. The answer was "Get rid of the 200 million most wasteful people on the planet, and that's happening now"....

We should absolutely commit our country to reducing carbon emissions. Can we guarantee others will go along? nope. But that's why we meet with them and discuss it and have treaties and whatnot - to try to get them to do it. China IS going into alternative energy in a big way; others will do it eventually as well. You really want to be last kid on the block to change?

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

You say it's a sacrifice - the longer we wait, the harder it will be; if we do it now, we'll have a technology leadership that will reduce the pain.

Please don't be obtuse. All I am saying is IF make this move so that the US is off carbon by 2030, it is going to hurt our economy, it is going to cost us jobs, tax revenues are going to be lost from the industries we are phasing out. IF we do all this, and China does nothing, it will not matter a bit. China pollutes almost as much as EVERY OTHER NATION ON THE PLANET COMBINED. If they continue, our reducing our carbon output will not matter a jot or tittle.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Even if no one else does it, we'll be healthier, the world will be better off, and we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here.

.

Forgot to ask...why do you think this?

Do you understand how global warming works?

 

[Rune]

Whiner isn't reading my posts, but here's the deal w/ why "being a leader on the issue" isn't enough: trying to get off of carbon by 2030 will require ENORMOUS sacrifice, likely lead to widespread job loss, cost trillions and likely lead to a great deal of economic pain. Not to mention how the cost will affect other gov't programs that I'm sure many on this thread hold dear.

If we do that, if we commit to a moonshot x 1,000 effort, we had really better be sure that our "moral leadership" on this issue will inspire those sentimental leaders in China, Japan, India & the rest to follow suit. Because if they don't, we'll have made that sacrifice for very little in return.

Who are you?
Seriously. Who the fuck are you?
We should do nothing because it will be hard to do something?

Somehow building massive infrastructure is going to cause us to lose jobs?

Moonshot x 1000 is a total crock of shit. The plan is being implemented as we speak. Solar panels are being installed wholesale.
Geo-thermal exploration is expanding rapidly, another proven, in use technology.
Solar thermal plants are being built all over the world at record pace, giant devices capable of powering cities, and constructed in deserts near cities, thereby wasting no arable land.
Wind farms are spreading across the land and sea.
Hydro-electric systems continue to be installed.
Tidal current systems are in place and being used and new designs are being experimented with.
Safe thorium reactors are being implemented in developed countries (except this one)
The current from the bay of Fundy alone could power the entire eastern half of the continent.
Windmill designs as well as photo-voltaic panels are increasing in effectiveness as every technical university in the world races to improve them.
Every major manufacturing corporation in the world is working on some form of alternative energy, since as clear as the nose on your face, alternative energy is the next manufacturing boom,
akin to the boom caused by the production of automobiles a century ago.

By the way, Know it all but have it all wrong, the US military is the single biggest researcher of alternative fuels at this time, aside from China.

You sound like chicken little.
Stop repeating the same talking points I have already disproved. You are looking pretty stupid doing so and not helping your case that you are smarter than Darla at all.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Rune, you are absolutely clueless on this issue. Like I said - i'm for the transition. Not on the scale & timeframe that you're talking about.

Do you know what the cost of what you're proposing is? How many jobs it will cost? it is not fearmongering; I'm sure on healthcare & tax threads, you're all about the working American. Not on this thread - not by a longshot.

Your 'plan' would cause suffering for innumerable working Americans. I'm amazed that you can't see that, or choose to put on blinders regarding that. You're a fool.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

"Solar thermal plants are being built all over the world at record pace, giant devices capable of powering cities, and constructed in deserts near cities, thereby wasting no arable land.
Wind farms are spreading across the land and sea.
Hydro-electric systems continue to be installed."

I mean, just look at this. You sound like a dreamer. The above is great - but unless they increase the scale & timeframe exponentially, we won't be "off" carbon by 2030.

You have no idea what the implications are of what you are talking about. You're a mindless dreamer, willing to sacrifice average working people for your cause.

 

[Rune]

Forgot to ask...why do you think this?

Do you understand how global warming works?

All right that's it, you are either one seriously dumb bastard, or you are smoking crack.

That is the most ignorant thing you have posted this week.

The reasons are myriad. Have you no imagination whatsoever?

Are you completely incapable of critical thought? Do you like acid rain, and the fact that a rising percentage of children are born with asthma every year? That little girls get their periods now,
years earlier than even when you and I were teens?
That you shouldn't go outside ever without sunglasses since the ozone layer is no longer thick enough to prevent damage to the eyes we evolved with?
That most tap water is now unsafe to drink, that eating top of the food chain fish should be limited to once a month at the most due to mercury (burning coal) contamination?

Need I go on, or are those enough reasons for even your limited intellect to understand why any reduction in pollution is a good thing?

 

[Rune]

"Solar thermal plants are being built all over the world at record pace, giant devices capable of powering cities, and constructed in deserts near cities, thereby wasting no arable land.
Wind farms are spreading across the land and sea.
Hydro-electric systems continue to be installed."

I mean, just look at this. You sound like a dreamer. The above is great - but unless they increase the scale & timeframe exponentially, we won't be "off" carbon by 2030.

You have no idea what the implications are of what you are talking about. You're a mindless dreamer, willing to sacrifice average working people for your cause.

You are out of your mind. Everything quoted above is true. The equipment being manufactured and installed is creating jobs not costing them.
Please back up your ludacris claim that developing an alternative energy infrastructure will cost jobs rather than create them.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

All right that's it, you are either one seriously dumb bastard, or you are smoking crack.

That is the most ignorant thing you have posted this week.

The reasons are myriad. Have you no imagination whatsoever?

Are you completely incapable of critical thought? Do you like acid rain, and the fact that a rising percentage of children are born with asthma every year? That little girls get their periods now,
years earlier than even when you and I were teens?
That you shouldn't go outside ever without sunglasses since the ozone layer is no longer thick enough to prevent damage to the eyes we evolved with?
That most tap water is now unsafe to drink, that eating top of the food chain fish should be limited to once a month at the most due to mercury (burning coal) contamination?

Need I go on, or are those enough reasons for even your limited intellect to understand why any reduction in pollution is a good thing?

Hey, drama queen. Do you agree with tekky's assessment that if were are the ONLY country to make this change, "we'll have fewer expensive climate change catastrophes here."?

Please say yes, so I can conclude once & for all how clueless you are. If you're fighting "global warming," you should at least understand it.

 

[Rune]

Rune, you are absolutely clueless on this issue. Like I said - i'm for the transition. Not on the scale & timeframe that you're talking about.

Do you know what the cost of what you're proposing is? How many jobs it will cost? it is not fearmongering; I'm sure on healthcare & tax threads, you're all about the working American. Not on this thread - not by a longshot.

Your 'plan' would cause suffering for innumerable working Americans. I'm amazed that you can't see that, or choose to put on blinders regarding that. You're a fool.

I demand proof of your baseless accusations.
Start providing said proof or stand down, your childishness is wearying.