Is a Public Philosophy Still Possible?

Universal is not solely limited to humans.

If it is then you will have to determine EXACTLY what makes humans a quantum change from other animals. Go ahead. Give it a shot.

(Hint: remember you are NOT able to read animal minds. Just in case you wanted to start telling people what is in their minds.)
It is limited in the context of this discussion, and that is totally allowed by the dictionary definition of Universal.

Lions, armadillos, and mayflies do not have an objective sense of values, morality; and their brains aren't even designed to conceive of ontological reality, transcendence, the quadratic equation, the Pythagorean theorem, or the natural laws of the universe.

The pricetag of atheism is a reductionist materialism, and belief in a subjective morality based on opinion or the popular vote.

Therefore, I'm really surprised an atheist would start a thread saying Socrates should be our teacher, when the Socrates of the Platonic dialogues definitely believed that there were objectively true things about values and virtues independent of human opinion or whim, that we could discover through reason and dialectic.
 
It is limited in the context of this discussion, and that is totally allowed by the dictionary definition of Universal.

Disagree. Humans are merely one subset of "animalia".

You cannot arbitrarily break up a set and then decree that something that ONLY applies to one arbitrary subset is "universal".

Lions, armadillos, and mayflies do not have an objective sense of values,

I don't necessarily disagree, but I will note you cannot make that claim. You have NO WAY to know the content of animal minds.

You just can't.


morality; and their brains aren't even designed to conceive of ontological reality,

How on EARTH do you know this? This is just you making a made-up claim. You have NO EVIDENCE, and NO WAY to know this claim.
 
Is murder wrong under all circumstances? What if someone takes out a mass murderer?

Probably wouldn't be technically "murder". Killing a killer would be a form of "defense" or "self-defense". Murder is often defined as being against an innocent victim.
 
A universal within the class humans. That is logical.

I disagree with this arbitrary definition of the set.

It is like saying "X is universal to Bob Smith."

Humans are a subset of animals. In order for morality to be "universal" and have some "meaning" (remember: the whole point of decreeing morality to be a "universal truth" is to remove human caprice from the definition).

To say "morality is a universal truth" but ONLY for humans one may as well just say "Humans made up morality". Making it purely relative to humans and NOT a universal concept.
 
You have yet to explain why you have created an arbitrary subset of a larger set and then decreed it to be "universal".
He meant the universal of class humans.
I disagree with this arbitrary definition of the set.

It is like saying "X is universal to Bob Smith."

Humans are a subset of animals. In order for morality to be "universal" and have some "meaning" (remember: the whole point of decreeing morality to be a "universal truth" is to remove human caprice from the definition).

To say "morality is a universal truth" but ONLY for humans one may as well just say "Humans made up morality". Making it purely relative to humans and NOT a universal concept.
No, I am just talking simple logic. In the class of cars, four wheels is a universal. Just rhetoric.
 
Probably wouldn't be technically "murder". Killing a killer would be a form of "defense" or "self-defense". Murder is often defined as being against an innocent victim.
I guess that's why the TV series Dexter was so popular. But unless it is actually self defense, in a society with laws, it's obviously forbidden to take the law into how own hands.
 
Have to agree with Gardner. The issue was whether morality is universal for humans. Not universal for all living beings.
I'm really amazed that this even has to be explained to anyone.

Universal principles, as they apply to human beings, has been part of the public discourse at least since the Enlightenment, if not earlier.

No functioning human thinks the concepts of universal healthcare, universal declarations of human rights, or universal suffrage applies to lemurs, salamanders, or cyanobacteria.
 
He meant the universal of class humans.

So then we can all agree morality is something humans merely made up.

No, I am just talking simple logic. In the class of cars, four wheels is a universal. Just rhetoric.

But the whole point of the exercise is to establish morality as something BEYOND mere human convention.

If you say something is "universal" as a means of defining it as something OTHER than a mere human convention it is hardly valuable to then point out that in this case "universal" ONLY means "associated with humans".

That seems like the DEFINITION of something that is made up by humans. In other words: not universal by any stretch.
 
I'm really amazed that this even has to be explained to anyone.

Universal principles, as they apply to human beings, has been part of the public discourse at least since the Enlightenment, if not earlier.

No functioning human thinks the concepts of universal healthcare, universal declarations of human rights, or universal suffrage applies to lemurs, salamanders, or cyanobacteria.

I find it interesting that it has to be explained to you that the claim "Morality is universal" as a means of making it something MORE than a mere human-invented concept is really undercut when the term "universal" is then defined as ONLY RELATING TO HUMANS.

When one says "universal suffrage" that's fine insofar as it is to apply only to humans. But no one is arguing that "suffrage" is anything other than a human-invented concept.

In the case of morality the reason people prefer a "universal" definition of morality is to remove it from the realm of MERE HUMAN INVENTION. To then claim that the word then only applies to humans kind of undercuts the whole point.
 
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