Is an egg a chicken?

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

And a whole lot of stuff we already know such as the Universe and Earth are older than 6000 years as the anti-science people push.

I get a chuckle every time I think of that arc monstrosity in Kentucky with the dinosaurs 2x2 and Noah feeding them for 40 days and 40 nights. I wonder if he fed the carnivores?

Musta been a lotta dinosaur poop to shovel overboard.

Still, it is a mystery how he was able to get animals from all over the world, remove them from their needed habitat, and provide that on the arc.

 

[Cypress]

You’re insistent about the 2nd Law lol.

The 2nd deals with energy in a closed system and you’re conflating information with energy. If you want to stipulate that information can be an emergent property of energy/matter that’s fine. But that’s where I ask for evidence of this occurring anywhere apart from *already existent* biological systems.

And yes, since the designer explanation is excluded at the starting line by naturalistic methodology it lands in the faith category. But that is a different thing than saying it doesn’t have any explanatory power or that it takes a truck load of faith to believe biological information owes its existence to a higher intelligence.

If you are conflating the transfer of biologic information via DNA and genes, we obviously have no evidence of emergent biologic information on other worlds.

We also have investigated less than 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the known universe.

My personal gut feeling is that life, as we would recognize it, is exceedingly rare in the galaxy. It may have taken a remarkable and exceedingly unlikely coincidence of chemistry and physics to jump the threshold from non-biologic molecules to complex, self-replicating cells.

That does nothing to prove intelligent design in the literal Judeo-Christian tradition.

What it points to is our souped-up chimpanzee brains have cognitive limitations which are probably not going to ever allow us to completely understand all of reality. The logical positivists and the empiricists always made the point that the scope of potential human knowlege is limited to sensory perception and the intelligible.

Everything else we arrive at by inference, and inference is always provisional and imbued with uncertainty.

God, Yaweah, Allah, Brahma, et al. are all faces we put on the creative forces of reality. I do not have a problem with taking it on faith, and faith alone. The attempt to use the principles of science to prove an intelligent designer does not cut the mustard though. Thomas Aquinas tried that in the 13th century, and that avenue of reasoning has been abandoned since at least the 16th century.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

And no pondering as to why.

Why would such an entity do such a thing?

For what purpose?

Amusement?

'Oh, it's so boring here with all this power and all this nothingness. I think I'll create a universe with some special beings in one tiny speck of it and then sit back and watch what happens.'

As best as I can figure out, per modern western religions, it's so that there will be beings capable of worshiping him/her/it/them. The best part? If the creations do NOT worship properly, the creator gets to punish them in various ways.

Kind of like a mean little kid with an ant farm.

 

[Neoclitorus]

Is an egg a chicken?
If you order a chicken dinner would you be surprised to receive scrambled eggs?
If you go to an Easter egg hunt, do you expect to be chasing chickens?

eggs become chickens, chickens creates eggs.

waterfalls flow on
everchanging contour it's
song remains the same

"I am chegg. I am chegg."

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

As best as I can figure out, per modern western religions, it's so that there will be beings capable of worshiping him/her/it/them. The best part? If the creations do NOT worship properly, the creator gets to punish them in various ways.

Kind of like a mean little kid with an ant farm.

Precisely. It is illogical that such a being would require to be worshiped by the creations, when prior to the creation there was no such worshiping going on.

So that brings us right back to the only apparent answer for the question why, is for amusement.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Precisely. It is illogical that such a being would require to be worshiped by the creations, when prior to the creation there was no such worshiping going on.

So that brings us right back to the only apparent answer for the question why, is for amusement.

I've often wondered if the human desire -- across all human cultures and epochs of time -- to worship a divine being isn't a vestige of our baby- and childhood worship of and dependence on our parents.

 

[ExpressLane]

As best as I can figure out, per modern western religions, it's so that there will be beings capable of worshiping him/her/it/them. The best part? If the creations do NOT worship properly, the creator gets to punish them in various ways.

Kind of like a mean little kid with an ant farm.

Orv does not reward them.

 

[Cypress]

Hello Darth,



He was a smart guy. But he wasn't the end-all be-all of knowledge nor thought.

He does not get the final say of the age.

Isaac Newton had brilliant insights into the physics of motion, optics, and invented creative mathematical tools.

He was also keenly interested in alchemy, the divine, and the occult. Throughout his life, these pseudo-sciences pre-occupied him more than the traditional physics of motion and attraction.

In that sense, Isaac Newton was not the first scientist of the modern era. He was the last mystic of the pre-modern era.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Orv does not reward them.

Orv? Your god is an off road vehicle?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Hello Dutch Uncle,



Logically (and sadly) there will be, until we become more effective in thwarting such actions.

I am wondering how long it will be before we become forced to drastically raise the standards for when our flag will be at half mast, seeing as how we are rapidly approaching an age when it spends more time at half mast than full.

Again, it appears you and I aren't posting about the same thing. You're posting about defensive actions such as "thwarting such actions". I'm posting about growing more unity in the nation so such things don't even happen.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Hello Dutch Uncle,



I get a chuckle every time I think of that arc monstrosity in Kentucky with the dinosaurs 2x2 and Noah feeding them for 40 days and 40 nights. I wonder if he fed the carnivores?

Musta been a lotta dinosaur poop to shovel overboard.

Still, it is a mystery how he was able to get animals from all over the world, remove them from their needed habitat, and provide that on the arc.

There's no logic or science to it. IMO, any who believe such things are limiting the Almighty.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

As best as I can figure out, per modern western religions, it's so that there will be beings capable of worshiping him/her/it/them. The best part? If the creations do NOT worship properly, the creator gets to punish them in various ways.

Kind of like a mean little kid with an ant farm.

Only a few religions believe that to be true. Not all "modern western religions".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I believe it’s called blind faith in naturalistic processes lol.

Dude, all you are doing is proving you don't know shit about science and can't tell the difference between faith and fact.

Here's a thought experiment: Line up 1000 of the Capitol Insurrectionists leading up the roof to a 10 story building. One at a time have them step off the ledge into space.

What are the odds they'll be able to fly away? 1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? Not even 1 out of a 1000?

Or do you understand that gravity isn't a matter of blind faith? The laws of the Natural Universe a reality, not a matter of "blind faith".

 

[Darth Omar]

If you are conflating the transfer of biologic information via DNA and genes, we obviously have no evidence of emergent biologic information on other worlds.

We also have investigated less than 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the known universe.

My personal gut feeling is that life, as we would recognize it, is exceedingly rare in the galaxy. It may have taken a remarkable and exceedingly unlikely coincidence of chemistry and physics to jump the threshold from non-biologic molecules to complex, self-replicating cells.

That does nothing to prove intelligent design in the literal Judeo-Christian tradition.

What it points to is our souped-up chimpanzee brains have cognitive limitations which are probably not going to ever allow us to completely understand all of reality. The logical positivists and the empiricists always made the point that the scope of potential human knowlege is limited to sensory perception and the intelligible.

Everything else we arrive at by inference, and inference is always provisional and imbued with uncertainty.

God, Yaweah, Allah, Brahma, et al. are all faces we put on the creative forces of reality. I do not have a problem with taking it on faith, and faith alone. The attempt to use the principles of science to prove an intelligent designer does not cut the mustard though. Thomas Aquinas tried that in the 13th century, and that avenue of reasoning has been abandoned since at least the 16th century.

Purely from the standpoint of logic, there’s not a thing wrong with inferring the existence of a higher intelligence that was responsible for creation. Science is a different animal: it requires mechanisms as explanations for natural phenomena.

So it’s hardly ‘by faith alone’ that one would make a design inference as a solution to the biological information problem. Yes, it’s provisional but so are many other things. That doesn’t make it illogical.

Circling back [lol] to mechanisms, until there’s a mechanism to account for the origin of biological information, anyone who chooses to believe that life arose spontaneously from non-life is practicing blind faith.

 

[AProudLefty]

Strictly speaking, carbon.

Carbon bonds covalently so it lends itself to forming bio molecules and more importantly, proteins. Organic or bio molecules aren’t ‘alive’ in any sense if that’s what you’re getting at.

Yeah that's kinda what I was getting at. Basically, "non-life to life" seems nonsensical when you think about it. Also there's a possibility of silicon based life forms.

Organic/bio molecules never, ever, arrange themselves into functional structures apart from a code or operating script. Computer programmers would recognize it as a kind of software. Moreover, joining two different bio molecules together requires an enzyme. Enzymes are a specific kind of protein and the information for their construction is found in—you guessed it, the code.

You forgot that random/nonrandom input can come from outside, i.e. open systems.

I can’t begin to tell you how this information system came into existence sans some sort of intelligent agency from outside the system. No one else can either.

And you cannot tell how the "intelligent agency" came into existence either.

 

[AProudLefty]

I believe it’s called blind faith in naturalistic processes lol.

How do you have a faith in something you can see?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yeah that's kinda what I was getting at. Basically, "non-life to life" seems nonsensical when you think about it. Also there's a possibility of silicon based life forms.

You forgot that random/nonrandom input can come from outside, i.e. open systems.

And you cannot tell how the "intelligent agency" came into existence either.

The fine line between living and not alive is a mystery.

I doubt anything "magical" will found in the difference, but since human beings don't know where that fine line exists, there's no way to tell what it is.

Kinda like Dark Matter or Dark Energy. We know it's there, we know some of its effects, but don't know what it is.

 

[AProudLefty]

The fine line between living and not alive is a mystery.

I doubt anything "magical" will found in the difference, but since human beings don't know where that fine line exists, there's no way to tell what it is.

Kinda like Dark Matter or Dark Energy. We know it's there, we know some of its effects, but don't know what it is.

Most biologists don't consider viruses to be alive.

 

[AProudLefty]

I've often wondered if the human desire -- across all human cultures and epochs of time -- to worship a divine being isn't a vestige of our baby- and childhood worship of and dependence on our parents.

I remember reading about that. It might be true for some people. It never affected other people.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Dutch Uncle,

Again, it appears you and I aren't posting about the same thing. You're posting about defensive actions such as "thwarting such actions". I'm posting about growing more unity in the nation so such things don't even happen.

I am all about promoting unity. That would be the best way to thwart such actions. Build more trust and understanding so they never occur in the first place.