Is the Iraq war just a modern day crusade ?

Damocles said:
You are being deliberately obtuse. "All of christendom" doesn't mean every participant in the religion. It was the concerted will of the Church as a whole that this take place.

In other words to have the same thing happening now you would have every single church leader, with very few exceptions, espousing this as "holy". It isn't even slightly close to happening. It is not the official position of ANY mainstream christian church AT ALL that we should kill all muslims because they are heathens. It was the the official position of the church (the only one existing) at that time.

To say that this is the same thing is like saying that one person killing another is the same as Genocide. They aren't even in the same hemisphere of existence.
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Yes it was a lot simpler to get consensus when there was only one Christian church now wasn't it ;)

But the fact remains that many "Christians" still support this war against islamofascism....And far more supported it just one year ago.
 
uscitizen said:
Yes it was a lot simpler to get consensus when there was only one Christian church now wasn't it ;)

But the fact remains that many "Christians" still support this war against islamofascism....And far more supported it just one year ago.
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However, even that doesn't mean that they support the killing of every muslim because they are heathens. Those that support a war against "islamofascism" specifically wish to stop those who wish to kill us.

This too doesn't even come close to a "Crusade", not even minutely close. Nobody has advocated invading them and forcing them to become christians. The pulpits are not being used to officially promote the death of those "heathens" just because they are heathens. Nobody is promoting doing it for "Christ" only for self-defense. The comparison is like saying that a one-celled organism is the same as a human because they both have chromosomes.
 
Same game different century Damo. We are now converting them to our particular brand of "democracy". The one with "in god we trust " on our money....
 
uscitizen said:
Same game different century Damo. We are now converting them to our particular brand of "democracy". The one with "in god we trust " on our money....
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Nope. In one it was the total defeat and conversion of an entire religion, in this case it is not. You can keep attempting to make this square peg fit into that triangle hole but it isn't going to no matter how many times you hit it with that hammer. One cannot have the US in one nation protecting participants of the religion, and in another supposedly running a "Crusade" against it.

First, Democracy would not cause them to repudiate their religion, nor would it ever be the goal. Second, there is no plan to destroy every one of them or make them "convert" to this form of government even. Seriously, Kuwait on our list?
 
uscitizen said:
But Damo Were the Crusades really about Religion or was that just a tool then as well ?
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They were really about religion. The christians had had enough. Spain was taken over, etc. The Vatican made a pronouncement, the game was afoot. Nation after nation joined in as they were all officially "christian" nations. It was one of the things that actually led to the protestant movement as well as "Freedom of Religion" that we enjoy today. Nations did no longer want to be bound by such a relgious fiat.
 
I am sure that getting the armies out of the locals hair had nothing to do with it, nor with the wealth that was pillaged.....
Yep all about one religion replacing another one in the name of creating freedom from religion ???
 
uscitizen said:
I am sure that getting the armies out of the locals hair had nothing to do with it, nor with the wealth that was pillaged.....
Yep all about one religion replacing another one in the name of creating freedom from religion ???
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I didn't say that was the reason for the crusades. I said that the crusades were one of the reasons that people saw a need for such an arrangement.
 
Damocles said:
I didn't say that was the reason for the crusades. I said that the crusades were one of the reasons that people saw a need for such an arrangement.
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So then is it today, the religious right pushing the Iraq war has shown the need to keep religion out of government yet again.
 
I'd say, like all wars, the motivations for the crusades cannot be put down to one thing.

It was a power struggle between the Catholic Church and the Muslims.
It was an attempt to prevent the spread of Islam into Christian Europe, after Islam had so firmly slammed the Eastern Roman Empire.
It was about personal ambition of European nobles and popes.

But mostly, like all wars, it was about the fact that there are limited resources and many people competing for them. War is a natural selection for species like ours who have no natural predators...
 
Why would we need natural predators ? we are them.

Read Darwin's 'On Natural Selection'. Every species over-breeds. Usually they are thinned out by predators, disease, competition.

Humans have eliminated any predators and are fighting hard against disease, yet there is still competition over limited resources. Hence war.
 
Damocles said:
And because of this, over time, we will be able to step out of that particular cycle.
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I am not so sure of that. Technology is easy to pass on to the next generation, but morals and such seem to start over with each generation and only progress so far because of our short lifespan.
 
uscitizen said:
I am not so sure of that. Technology is easy to pass on to the next generation, but morals and such seem to start over with each generation and only progress so far because of our short lifespan.
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Education is also passed on, and in the higher educated societies birth rates drop. It will definitely, in time, be possible to step out of this cycle.

You really have a dismal view of the future.
 
Damocles said:
Education is also passed on, and in the higher educated societies birth rates drop. It will definitely, in time, be possible to step out of this cycle.

You really have a dismal view of the future.
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I believe the birth rate drop is not necessarily due to education, but with the rampant materialism and nihilism that has accompanied the educational rise in the west. It's a value issue, not a knowledge issue. And to the degree that our institutions of higher learning have been taken over by anti-west nihilists, the society reflects this.
 
Damocles said:
Education is also passed on, and in the higher educated societies birth rates drop. It will definitely, in time, be possible to step out of this cycle.

You really have a dismal view of the future.
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The last 7 years of neos leading the stupid sheeple of my country has not comforted me at all on where our country is and needs to be....
 
uscitizen said:
The last 7 years of neos leading the stupid sheeple of my country has not comforted me at all on where our country is and needs to be....
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What do democrats say that give you solace? Instead of bitching, offer a plan.

how about retreat from Iraq, but a ban on muslim immigration? Does that work for you? Then the neocon trope of "If we don't fight them there, we'll have to fight them here" becomes as non-issue. Or do you want to be forced to worship Allah at the point of a beheading sword. Don't think it won't happen. And don't think it's not The Plan.
 
uscitizen said:
The last 7 years of neos leading the stupid sheeple of my country has not comforted me at all on where our country is and needs to be....
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So the entire future is judged by the present? You have a dismal AND limited view of the future.
 
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