Islam's 12th Imam

[klaatu]

This may be an educational experience for those of you who's sole purpose in frequenting these boards is to remind the rest of us how evil America is and how it is America and Israels fault that terrorists behave the way they do .... I maintain they have a mission ...


Is George Bush and Israel driving the unrest in the middle east or is it something deeper .. more spiritual that drives the hearts and minds of the Islamic World?
I maintain that of all the Worlds Religions .. The Muslims may be the most committed in terms of following their leaders... by way of their leaders interpretations of the Qurans Prophetic Scriptures.
The most vocal voice in the World of Islam and the Prophecies within is Irans Leader President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad .. he has taken it upon himself to usher in what is known as Islam's 12th Imam ...





'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader
By Anton La Guardia


(Filed: 14/01/2006)



As Iran rushes towards confrontation with the world over its nuclear programme, the question uppermost in the mind of western leaders is "What is moving its President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to such recklessness?"

Political analysts point to the fact that Iran feels strong because of high oil prices, while America has been weakened by the insurgency in Iraq.


President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
But listen carefully to the utterances of Mr Ahmadinejad - recently described by President George W Bush as an "odd man" - and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.

When an aircraft crashed in Teheran last month, killing 108 people, Mr Ahmadinejad promised an investigation. But he also thanked the dead, saying: "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow."

The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.

One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about £10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well.

All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran.

Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect believes this will be Mohammed ibn Hasan, regarded as the 12th Imam, or righteous descendant of the Prophet Mohammad.

He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the ninth century, at the age of five. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war and bloodshed. After a cataclysmic confrontation with evil and darkness, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace.

This is similar to the Christian vision of the Apocalypse. Indeed, the Hidden Imam is expected to return in the company of Jesus.

Mr Ahmadinejad appears to believe that these events are close at hand and that ordinary mortals can influence the divine timetable.

The prospect of such a man obtaining nuclear weapons is worrying. The unspoken question is this: is Mr Ahmadinejad now tempting a clash with the West because he feels safe in the belief of the imminent return of the Hidden Imam? Worse, might he be trying to provoke chaos in the hope of hastening his reappearance?

The 49-year-old Mr Ahmadinejad, a former top engineering student, member of the Revolutionary Guards and mayor of Teheran, overturned Iranian politics after unexpectedly winning last June's presidential elections.

The main rift is no longer between "reformists" and "hardliners", but between the clerical establishment and Mr Ahmadinejad's brand of revolutionary populism and superstition.

Its most remarkable manifestation came with Mr Ahmadinejad's international debut, his speech to the United Nations.

World leaders had expected a conciliatory proposal to defuse the nuclear crisis after Teheran had restarted another part of its nuclear programme in August.

Instead, they heard the president speak in apocalyptic terms of Iran struggling against an evil West that sought to promote "state terrorism", impose "the logic of the dark ages" and divide the world into "light and dark countries".

The speech ended with the messianic appeal to God to "hasten the emergence of your last repository, the Promised One, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace".

In a video distributed by an Iranian web site in November, Mr Ahmadinejad described how one of his Iranian colleagues had claimed to have seen a glow of light around the president as he began his speech to the UN.

"I felt it myself too," Mr Ahmadinejad recounts. "I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there. And for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blink…It's not an exaggeration, because I was looking.

"They were astonished, as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."

Western officials said the real reason for any open-eyed stares from delegates was that "they couldn't believe what they were hearing from Ahmadinejad".

Their sneaking suspicion is that Iran's president actually relishes a clash with the West in the conviction that it would rekindle the spirit of the Islamic revolution and - who knows - speed up the arrival of the Hidden Imam.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...an14.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/14/ixworld.html

 

[klaatu]

Bernard Lewis (born May 31, 1916, London) is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. He specializes in Muslim History and the interaction between Muslims and the West. His works on the history of the Ottoman Empire are considered authoritative on the subject.

Lewis is one of the most widely read scholars of the Middle East, whose advice is frequently sought by policymakers. The Encyclopedia of Historians and Historical Writing has written that, over a 60-year career, he has emerged as "the most influential postwar historian of Islam and the Middle East." [1]






Lewis on Iran's August 22 Surprise
inthebullpen ^ | Tuesday, August 8, 2006


Posted on 08/08/2006 9:09:50 PM PDT by InvisibleChurch


Tuesday, August 8, 2006 Filed under: Iran Watch by Chad Evans at 9:35 pm EDT Professor Bernard Lewis asks in the Opinion Journal what Iran has in store for August 22, 2006. This year, based upon the Islamic calendar not being the same as our calendar, August 22 coincides with August 27 which is the date in which Mohammed rose into Heaven. And indeed Iran has increased its rhetoric indicating they have a surprise in store for the world on the 22nd. What is this surprise and on whom is the surprise going to sprung upon?

A week ago Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told that on August 22 the Jerusalem sky will light up, a reference to Mohammed’s ascension into Heaven. This sky won’t light up through divine means, but rather because Iran wants it to. Ahmadinejad has repeatedly relied on the Shia religious scriptures fortelling the second coming of the 12th Imam (covered in depth at ITB), and as a brief summary of the story of the 12th Imam’s return, it is much like the apocalypse scenarios in other religions except that in Ahmadinejad’s version it is a positive thing to bring about the end of the world and he has stated he wants to be the one to do so.

What could cause the Jerusalem sky from lighting up to the magnitude it allegedly did when Mohammed rose to Heaven other than a nuclear bomb? Would Ahmadinejad though risk the lives of fellow Muslims and destroy Islamic holy sites? Lewis answers thusly:

The phrase “Allah will know his own” is usually used to explain such apparently callous unconcern; it means that while infidel, i.e., non-Muslim, victims will go to a well-deserved punishment in hell, Muslims will be sent straight to heaven. According to this view, the bombers are in fact doing their Muslim victims a favor by giving them a quick pass to heaven and its delights–the rewards without the struggles of martyrdom. School textbooks tell young Iranians to be ready for a final global struggle against an evil enemy, named as the U.S., and to prepare themselves for the privileges of martyrdom.

A direct attack on the U.S., though possible, is less likely in the immediate future. Israel is a nearer and easier target, and Mr. Ahmadinejad has given indication of thinking along these lines. The Western observer would immediately think of two possible deterrents. The first is that an attack that wipes out Israel would almost certainly wipe out the Palestinians too. The second is that such an attack would evoke a devastating reprisal from Israel against Iran, since one may surely assume that the Israelis have made the necessary arrangements for a counterstrike even after a nuclear holocaust in Israel.

The first of these possible deterrents might well be of concern to the Palestinians–but not apparently to their fanatical champions in the Iranian government. The second deterrent–the threat of direct retaliation on Iran–is, as noted, already weakened by the suicide or martyrdom complex that plagues parts of the Islamic world today, without parallel in other religions, or for that matter in the Islamic past. This complex has become even more important at the present day, because of this new apocalyptic vision.

And we are told constantly suicide and murder are against Islam, and indeed both are, but that never has stopped suicidal Muslims using their faith from committing murder in the past. Why would it in Ahmadinejad’s scenario?

There is no question Ahmadinejad has a thirst for war. In almost every public announcement I have read from Ahmadinejad he calls for war, be it the destruction of Israel or the over-used phrase “death to America.” Ahmadinejad though views war as a good thing, because it would, in his mind, finally seal the fate once and for all for the Infidel population of the world and unite the Ummah.

Lewis continues:

A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. “I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another’s hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.”

In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead–hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement.

The real string puller in Iran is not Ahmadinejad, for his own strings are pulled by the Mullahs who believe their power is obtained through Allah. This is yet another rather obvious irony in the belief system of radical Islam, for Islamists claim no one can choose who to govern because it is Allah’s choice. How then can one decide, as in the case of Khomeini, that he should govern all? Is it not Allah’s choice?

When Ahmadinejad announced to the world that Iran had a nuclear program, something we already all knew, he called it a victory for Islam. He never mentioned the Iranian technology was purchased and was decades old. How can we be so certain that Iran’s nuclear program has anything to do with this supposed August 22 surprise? August 22 of this year is the date in which Iran has pledged to give its final answer to the EU3, the U.S., Russia and China in response to the offer to settle Iran’s nuclear program once and for all. Coincidence? I don’t think it is, and there’s a bit more to the story.

Assuming Iran does not already have a nuclear weapon, and there are a handul of people that are convinced Iran already has at least one nuclear warhead, this could be the date that Iran decides is used to signal to the entire world they are trying to end the world. They can do this by launching a direct attack upon Israel instead of using their proxies in Hamas and Hezbollah, essentially using the Palestinian and Lebanese people as their personal meat grinders to hammer away at Israel. Iran does have missiles capable of hitting Israel and it has threatened to use these against Israel in the past.

This direct attack upon Israel would force the world into two corners; one on Israel’s side and the other not necessarily on Iran’s side but definitely not on Israel’s side. Iran would intend on using its own natural resources as bargaining chips in its war. It has already threatened such use. I hardly believe this would be the end of the world, but Iran sees itself as the protectorate of Islam and would see a scenario in which many nations declared war upon it as the end of the world. In other words Iran would see the issue as the world versus Islam, the exact scenario in which the 12th Imam is supposed to return within.

It would take a coincidence of enormous proportion to tie all that is currently going on with respect to Israel, increased insurgency from Iranian backed groups in Iraq, deadlines given on Iran’s nuclear program combined with Iran’s date of return on the proposal coinciding with a future surprise, Iran’s increased role in the Middle East with an Iranian attack upon Jerusalem. In fact some might say such a large coincidence must be a divine intention, and that’s exactly what Iran seems to be preparing.

Iran has had more than 20 years to prepare for what they believe will be the final showdown between Islam and the Infidel, yet nary is a peep about this in the U.S. media. Lewis’ column is the first I have strolled upon regarding this very scenario in a major media outlet, and I have tried to locate such news before. Could Iran be preparing to invade Poland?

Other takes on August 2nd:

Blog Lizzards: “Will Iran precipitate a conflagration, the final holocaust that will bring back the Hidden Imam and usher in the Moslem Millennium? Since we do not know, we must prepare for the worst: we must be ready with policy in case Iran directly attacks Israel on that date, thus widening a local war into a regional superwar… which could become a hyperwar — call it the Tenth Crusade — of Christendom (joined, perhaps, by Atheistan) against the Ummah.

We cannot allow ourselves to be sucker-punched again, as we were on September 11th. This time, we must make it clear that we’re well aware of Iran’s aspirations, and we’re prepared to offer martyrdom to as many jihadis as want it, all to protect our own ‘abode.’”

Hyscience: “To Iran, It’s about pride, power, and a radical Islamic ideology. For Ahmadinejad and the mullahs, a martyr’s heaven - sparked by an Islamic-induced apocalypse, is undoubtedly coming, sooner or later. Whether it happens on August 22 or not, if Iran is allowed to go nuclear, it will be very soon thereafter. In the meantime - count on the present conflict in Lebanon to be just a warmup.”

Right Truth who culls together many reports. Note none of those reports are in major publications.

 

[klaatu]

This is what they are taught from day one... how the rest of the world deals with this mind set .. I dont know... they are and will continue to be resilient ...
I believe our only hope is to work in harmony with that part of the Islamic World that doesnt subscribe to this belief system.
To identify that .. will be difficult.
Lets look at the Christian woorld for example ...
A major part of the Christian World believes in an apolyctic ending to the age we are currently living in .. (often misunderstood as the end of the world) this means the end of an age a ....new one to be ushered in by the return of Jesus Christ.
Not much different than the Islamic Belief ....

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Those of you who subscribe to the notion that a nuclear armed Iran wouldn't dare use them for fear of certain catastrophic reprisal, should read this carefully. It explains in detail, how utterly foolish you are, to use such conventional wisdom here.

During the Cold War, we were conditioned to believe in the concept of 'mutually assured destruction', and because the Soviets feared death as much as us, this deterrent was enough to prevent a 'first response' by either country. Such is not the case with Iran. Any reprisal for their assured annihilation of Israel, is thought of as martyrdom, and they embrace this idea.

The mistake many people are making here, is in thinking there is a peaceful solution, that we can negotiate with the leader of Iran, that we can deter him from his objectives in any way. They will allow themselves to use the conventional wisdom they've always applied to our enemies, that death matters to them as much as it matters to us, and that life means more.

 

[Care4all]

Their 12th Iman is like the arch angel Michael....who will be riding by Jesus's side when he returns....

it is amazing how close their prophesy is to the Christian prophesy of Christ's return....

According to their Haddiths, Jesus comes to save the day and brings peace to them... just as with Christians....

hmmm?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I believe our only hope is to work in harmony with that part of the Islamic World that doesnt subscribe to this belief system.

In Saudi Arabia, our "friends" educate their children that we are pigs and the Jews are monkeys, and that all religious belief other than Islam is false. This hatred for Jews and western culture, is ingrained in them and they are indoctrinated into it, at a very early age. We are now dealing with multiple generations of this hatred and intolerant bigotry, and there is no signs of that changing soon.

It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another. The only possible avenue to explore, is appealing to moderate Muslim elements to "un-pervert" the radicals among their own. Much the way moderate Christians "un-perverted" their fanatics who were compelled to burn people for suspected witchcraft and devil worship.

There is an important and profound reason you don't see Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson sawing off the heads of Marilyn Manson and Madonna on their weekly T.V. shows... do you know what it is? Here's a clue...

"...all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator, certain inalienable rights..."

It is the societal structure of American Constitutional Democracy, which guarantees freedom of religious belief without persecution, and insures that our government, without prejudice, will protect that right for us all. The same brilliantly constructed doctrine can apply to Muslim nations, the basic concept is the same, regardless of culture. Yes, it will take many years and many generations for their own people to weed out the radical bigotry and hate, just as it took many years for America to do this. But is it ultimately a solution? I believe it is, because I truly believe in the power of democracy and freedom, as well as the concepts this nation was based upon. Will it mean that Jews and Christians will live in peace and harmony with Muslims? Hardly. But perhaps we can learn to avoid Apocalypse.

 

[evince]

and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.


You do realize that our Bushy says God talks to him and that he believes in Armagedon dont you?

 

[Care4all]

and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.


You do realize that our Bushy says God talks to him and that he believes in Armagedon dont you?

yes, quite frightening....
never once in Prophesy does it say that God's hand reaches down to two different men across seas and gives them the sole insight to what is about to go down...and what God wants them to do to bring on Armageddon....

God DOES NOT BRING ON ARMAGEDDON, only man does....God cuts the tribulation period short, because so much anguish takes place and he could not bear to see us suffer any longer from our OWN ACTIONS.....is what Prophesy states?

I am so sick of these people thinking they are the "Holy" ones by "bringing on" Armageddon....THE BAD GUYS BRING ON ARMAGEDDON in the Bible, NOT the GOOD guys...okay Christians that think we should bring on Armageddon?

(Yes prophesy states that God gives "power" to the "beastly system" or to the "beast" in the end of age period, because He withdrawls His protection of the Holy Spirit from us and all hell breaks loose, is basically what it says.... but this in no way means that God has caused these manly actions of dellusion and hatred...we have free will and quite frankly, freewill with a bunch of lunatics around is frightening, but reality....

man makes his own bed and it ain't looking pretty with many of these dellusional, power hungry, leaders around! )

 

[klaatu]

and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.


You do realize that our Bushy says God talks to him and that he believes in Armagedon dont you?

And I also realize that Jimmy Carter did as well , Bill Clinton walked around with a Bible in his hand and Hillary talked to Eleanor Roosevelt .....
The fact that you cannot differentiate between the two... brings us back to the opening statement of my thread ...

Your sole purpose in frequenting these boards is to remind the rest of us how evil George Bush is and how it is America and Israels fault that terrorists behave the way they do

This is not a pro Bush thread by any means Desh .. this is a thread to take a look at the underlying force of those that wish to end your way of life....

Open up your friggin eyes ..!

This is the problem ... you do not have the ability to see those that wish to end your way of life.. because your only enemy is first and foremost George W Bush ....

We have a problem here.... Bush isnt it .. he can and will be replaced in a couple short years ... the major problem is whats happening in the Middle East...... the engine that drives it.

 

[klaatu]

yes, quite frightening....
never once in Prophesy does it say that God's hand reaches down to two different men across seas and gives them the sole insight to what is about to go down...and what God wants them to do to bring on Armageddon....

God DOES NOT BRING ON ARMAGEDDON, only man does....God cuts the tribulation period short, because so much anguish takes place and he could not bear to see us suffer any longer from our OWN ACTIONS.....is what Prophesy states?

I am so sick of these people thinking they are the "Holy" ones by "bringing on" Armageddon....THE BAD GUYS BRING ON ARMAGEDDON in the Bible, NOT the GOOD guys...okay Christians that think we should bring on Armageddon?

(Yes prophesy states that God gives "power" to the "beastly system" or to the "beast" in the end of age period, because He withdrawls His protection of the Holy Spirit from us and all hell breaks loose, is basically what it says.... but this in no way means that God has caused these manly actions of dellusion and hatred...we have free will and quite frankly, freewill with a bunch of lunatics around is frightening, but reality....

man makes his own bed and it ain't looking pretty with many of these dellusional, power hungry, leaders around! )

Your pointing the finger at two armies ... so who is the good and who is the bad? Or in your figuring ... are they joined at the hip? Is this the over all deception ? They are joined at the hip?

 

[evince]

GWB talks to god adn you claim to see inside my brain.

Klat right now the enemy is GWB when hes out of office I will deal with the next greates threat to America.

 

[Cypress]

This may be an educational experience for those of you who's sole purpose in frequenting these boards is to remind the rest of us how evil America is and how it is America and Israels fault that terrorists behave the way they do

Who said that?

Specific names and examples, with links please

 

[klaatu]

I believe our only hope is to work in harmony with that part of the Islamic World that doesnt subscribe to this belief system.



It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another. The only possible avenue to explore, is appealing to moderate Muslim elements to "un-pervert" the radicals among their own. Much the way moderate Christians "un-perverted" their fanatics who were compelled to burn people for suspected witchcraft and devil worship.

.

Bullshit .. we find common ground with Hindus and Buddhists, why not Islam? They are human beings. ... I beleive there is an underground culture within the Middle Eastern Islamic Community who's main obective is Freedom from their Fascist Fanatic Leaders. Isnt this the same reasoning Bush went into Iraq? Above all else it is inherent in Humans to be free...
It is this Community that must be tapped into ...
Therein lies the problem, for west to find the leadership that will have the ability to reach this community and bring them to the forefront.
I believe Bush's attempts to do that in Iraq were well meaning but a total failure.
I have to agree with our liberal brothers and sisters that this Occupation did more to incite haste in the cause of the 'Divine mission' .
But I disagree with their attempts to ignore the main objections of Extreme Islam and their hold over the region by laying total blame on Israel and America.

 

[Cypress]

.

It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another.

this is america dude. Maybe alabama is different than america, but american muslmis are quite will integrated into our society. And I've met hundreds of muslims from malaysia, Yemen, indonesia, and turkey who are decent people who get along quite well with christians and jews.

 

[Care4all]

Your pointing the finger at two armies ... so who is the good and who is the bad? Or in your figuring ... are they joined at the hip? Is this the over all deception ? They are joined at the hip?

yes, without our knowledge.... one party is ''supposedly'' an allied force with israel and draws those that hate her in to war, but betrays her through deceit, the other party is from the ''east'' of Israel that is a major aggressor against israel, is what i thought the prophesy in Daniel 7-9 says....i think?

prophesy also states the evil around the world, though separate, ''is in unison with the beast and part of this beastly system'' and explains the symbolism of this ''beast'' in revelation 13, and 17, and 18....i believe?

so yes, the evil on BOTH sides of this tribulation to come are to blame and us peons are caught in the middle, but this tribulation will be cut short to spare us from total extinction, with the return of the messiah....and all those evil people will be cast away forming a NEW AGE of peace and tranqillity for 1000 years....is what i believe this prophesy says....

but i could be wrong...

 

[klaatu]

yes, without our knowledge.... one party is ''supposedly'' an allied force with israel and draws those that hate her in to war, but betrays her through deceit, the other party is from the ''east'' of Israel that is a major aggressor against israel, is what i thought the prophesy in Daniel 7-9 says....i think?

prophesy also states the evil around the world, though separate, ''is in unison with the beast and part of this beastly system'' and explains the symbolism of this ''beast'' in revelation 13, and 17, and 18....i believe?

so yes, the evil on BOTH sides of this tribulation to come are to blame and us peons are caught in the middle, but this tribulation will be cut short to spare us from total extinction, with the return of the messiah....and all those evil people will be cast away forming a NEW AGE of peace and tranqillity for 1000 years....is what i believe this prophesy says....

but i could be wrong...

I always heard the interpretation as an aggressor from the east with a great Army was China or maybe Russia .... and considering both seem to be tilting towards an anti Israel agenda .. maybe its the two combined....

Another thing about Bible prophecy ...... the term Gods chosen people has always been taken out of context ... I believe Israel to be Gods chosen land .. not people.. big difference ... thus the fight for the land ....

 

[Care4all]

I always heard the interpretation as an aggressor from the east with a great Army was China or maybe Russia .... and considering both seem to be tilting towards an anti Israel agenda .. maybe its the two combined....

Another thing about Bible prophecy ...... the term Gods chosen people has always been taken out of context ... I believe Israel to be Gods chosen land .. not people.. big difference ... thus the fight for the land ....

I had thought that also, at one time....

let me propose it to you in a different way....

the Hebrew/ jews were considered "lowly" people....they were punished and enslaved for centuries in Egypt and elsewhere.... God chose to be with them because He wanted to show the world that He loved All mankind, even those that were thought of as scum and only slave worthy....and show how even the lowliest in man's mind and sinners in God's ways, is loved by God and God can give favor to....

I don't think it is the land, I think it is the people.... this does not mean that God has seen their mistakes, and idolitry, and killings as something good, because they are punished over and over and over again according to scripture.... Their land was even taken from them....by God if you believe in Scripture.... (And they still did not repent) is what the Bible indicates....

So, just because I support the Jews does not mean that I necessarily support the israeli government in all that they do unGodly.....I am not blind to their faults, they have plenty of them and always have according to Scripture....


yes both China and Russia are joined at the hip with Iran, which is also to the east of Israel....

 

[klaatu]

GWB talks to god adn you claim to see inside my brain.

Klat right now the enemy is GWB when hes out of office I will deal with the next greates threat to America.

GWB is not the only one who talks to God Desh ... everyone who prays talks to God, millions upon millions of Americans including those that you side politically with ... i.e. Gore, Kerry and the Clintons .... at least they claim to... then if you dont believe they do .. are they liars?

Right now your political enemy is George W Bush... ... but there is a much more dangerous enemy that lurks.... you need to come to terms with that ...

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another.

this is america dude. Maybe alabama is different than america, but american muslmis are quite will integrated into our society. And I've met hundreds of muslims from malaysia, Yemen, indonesia, and turkey who are decent people who get along quite well with christians and jews.

Read again, I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. The people of these religions can most certainly learn to integrate with each other and co-exist, the religious dogma is always going to be diametrically opposed. You will never force Muslims to accept Christianity, and Christians will never acknowledge Muhammad as a legitimate deity. You can never make the Bible say things it doesn't say, and you can't make the Qaran not say things it says. Both religions are what they are, and they contradict each other in a way that is irreconcilable. This acceptance of fact is important and crucial to recognize, while learning how we deal with each other in a civilized society.

 

[Cypress]

Read again, I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. The people of these religions can most certainly learn to integrate with each other and co-exist, the religious dogma is always going to be diametrically opposed. You will never force Muslims to accept Christianity, and Christians will never acknowledge Muhammad as a legitimate deity. You can never make the Bible say things it doesn't say, and you can't make the Qaran not say things it says. Both religions are what they are, and they contradict each other in a way that is irreconcilable. This acceptance of fact is important and crucial to recognize, while learning how we deal with each other in a civilized society.

Dixie wrote: "It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another."

Dixie, I gather you were unaware that Moses, David, and Jesus are highly revered in Islam, and are considered prophets of God by muslims, and that the Koran contains many of the same references to people and events, that the bible does?