Islam's 12th Imam

It's Pollyanna to think we can ever expect to find common ground between Judeo-Christian and Islamic religions, they are essentially, diametric contradictions of one another. The only possible avenue to explore, is appealing to moderate Muslim elements to "un-pervert" the radicals among their own. Much the way moderate Christians "un-perverted" their fanatics who were compelled to burn people for suspected witchcraft and devil worship.

It's important to understand what I am saying here. Christians and Jews can never "change the hearts and minds of Muslims" and Muslims will never drive the world back to the 5th Century and kill all the Jews and Infidels. Neither of these things will ever happen, but a lot of people with 'good intentions' and 'bad intentions' can cause a lot of death trying to.

The fundamental key to the problem, lies in American Constitutional Democracy. This goes beyond simply applying our own form of government to Muslim people at the threat of gunpoint, it requires that independent thinking Muslims realize the power and enormity of constitutional democracy by the people, and amalgamate their own version of the same idea. In many fundamental ways, this concept challenges the Islamic faith, and it's an extremely difficult task, which is why theocratic fascism and dictatorships have flourished with them for so long, but it's not out of the realm of possibility, and democracy certainly seems to provide a solution to "radicalism" when allowed to function.

Numerous examples can be found among our own 'Christian' fanatics over the years... enslaving godless savages... burning witches... lynching... etc. Radical fanaticism tends to languish in a democratic society, because the nutbags are marginalized and ostracized.
 
klaatu said:
GWB is not the only one who talks to God Desh ... everyone who prays talks to God, millions upon millions of Americans including those that you side politically with ... i.e. Gore, Kerry and the Clintons QUOTE]

very true!

the difference is that president bush said that God spoke to him....if memory serves....
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islamic extremists will bankrupt America if we let them. Look at the billions of dollars we have spent on airline security hardware ar airports and those fancy incredibly expensive machines cannot detect liquid explosives. The relatively low tech nature of the universe of potential threats, when compared to the incredible price to figure out and them implement means of detecting them, only to have the nimble extremists come up with the next new thing......

Just think for a moment whether we might be better off using all of that money and all that energy and time and consider ways of addressing the socio-economic issues that are the root cause of the mistrust and hatred for the west in the land of Islam.

If the people in the land of Islam were better off instead of marginalized while their leaders live in opulence, there would not be much of an audience for extremism and certainly much less tacit and overt public support for it.
 
it certainly wouldn't matter in terms of your net worth, but it would definitely matter in terms of your crediblity when discussing religion.
 
Care4all said:
klaatu said:
GWB is not the only one who talks to God Desh ... everyone who prays talks to God, millions upon millions of Americans including those that you side politically with ... i.e. Gore, Kerry and the Clintons QUOTE]

very true!

the difference is that president bush said that God spoke to him....if memory serves....
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How many Christians do you know or heard of that feel as if God has spoken to them in some way, shape or form ..? Its not unusual ...

I think it is very UnChristian like of GWB to have gone to the extremes that he has in fighting this War and invading Iraq .. but I also know it is very UnChristian like to question anothers faith .. so I think we need to be carefull here ...
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Seems to me everyone from that area wants theocracy, eventually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology
Main article: Jewish Messiah
The Hebrew word Mashiach (or Moshiach) means anointed one, and refers to a human being who will usher in a messianic era of peace and prosperity for both the living and the deceased[citation needed]:

Judaism has taught that a moshiach ("messiah") will bring about a revival of both the ancient united Kingdom of Israel and its ancient form of sacrificial worship in the Temple in Jerusalem.


[edit] In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible)
Most of the textual requirements concerning the messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located within the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned in other prophets as well.

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an "observant Jew" (citation needed) with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
For My House (the Temple in Jerusalem) shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3–7)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

[edit] In the Talmud
The Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, contains a long discussion of the events leading to the coming of the Messiah, for example:

R. Johanan said: When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him [the Messiah], as it is written, And the afflicted people thou wilt save. R. Johanan said: When thou seest a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him, as it is written, when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him; which is followed by, And the Redeemer shall come to Zion.
R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. 'in a generation that is altogether righteous,' — as it is written, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever. 'Or altogether wicked,' — as it is written, And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor;31 and it is [elsewhere] written, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it.[1]
Throughout Jewish history Jews have compared these passages (and others) to contemporary events in search of signs of the Messiah's imminent arrival, continuing into present times. For example, the Chabad-Lubavitch movement of Hassidic Judaism, along with many other Orthodox Jewish leaders[citation needed], has suggested that the devastation among Jews wrought by the Holocaust may represent a sign of hope for the Messiah's present imminent arrival.
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"This may be an educational experience for those of you who's sole purpose in frequenting these boards is to remind the rest of us how evil America is and how it is America and Israels fault that terrorists behave the way they do .... I maintain they have a mission ... "

1. America and Israel are not evil

2. They are, by an large, responsible for pretty much all terrorist activity today
 
Care4all said:
klaatu said:
GWB is not the only one who talks to God Desh ... everyone who prays talks to God, millions upon millions of Americans including those that you side politically with ... i.e. Gore, Kerry and the Clintons
Click to expand...

very true!

the difference is that president bush said that God spoke to him....if memory serves....
Click to expand...

Everyone who is under the impression that they are talking to God is simply delusional. Religion is a mass hallucination. Evangelical services remind me of the Neurembourg rallies.
 
The argument that one religion is more evil than another is as mindless an argument as have ever existed. Fanatacism can be found in most religions, including Christianity and the religion of Jews. Fanatics all believe that their religion is superior to all others and they are all filled with arrogance. But, arrogance and spirituality are mutually exclusive and are inversely proportional.

Last year, Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, former Sephardic chief rabbi and an influential authority among conservative Jews, issued a fatwa asking the Israeli Army not to flinch from killing Palestinian civilians in the context of the ongoing military campaign against armed groups resisting the occupation. He mentioned in his fatwa, which received special attention from religious media outlets and hundreds of pamphlets distributed inside synagogues in Israel. that all Palestinians must be murdered, even the ones who are not participating in the war against terrorism. This wasn't enough for the revered rabbi, who said that this was not only a fatwa, but a religious duty from God that Jews must follow.

Yediot Ahronot newspaper reported on July 25, 2002 that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the current spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Knesset (Israel's Parliament), said that until Christ the Savior arrives, he will send all Arabs to hellfire. "Why doesn't Ariel Sharon do what needs to be done? He's scared of the people of the world. But when the Savior Christ comes, he won't fear anyone. He will send all the Arabs to hell." Yosef described Arabs as snakes and said Jews should not trust them.

Rabbi Eli Albaz, who is one of the distinctive Eastern rabbis, he never misses an opportunity to attack Islam and condemn them all to death. He insists on complaining in front of his audience by telling jokes that address Muslims and Palestinians and using filthy language to attack Muslims. And Rabbi Eliyahu Reskin continuously ridicules the reconciliation attempts to create dialogue between Jewish rabbis and Arab officials. He believes that the only language of dialogue between Muslims and Jews should be bullets.

Many of these rabid Rabbis don't just save their hate for Islam, they also attack Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, other Jews, and anyone else who doesn't believe in their fanatical belief in a Jewish utopia. Jewish vigilante group organized by ultra-orthodox rabbis have been involved in hate crimes even in the US and preach their venom of hate and murder here and elsewhere everyday. The rabbis often quote a Talmudic ruling, which states "Our lives come first."

God talks to Bush and told him to go mass-murder hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, including women, children, and babies for profit. A list of christian fundmentalists who preach hate of everybody, including people like Jerry Falwell in the mainstream are so well documented and known it unnecessary to even post their dementia. The KKK considered itself to be a christian organization. The bible itself is filled with murder, often at the hands of God, and it condones rape and slavery. Leviticus 24:44 "You may take your male and female slaves from the heathen nations around you ... and you may will them to your children like cattle."

Israel is one of the most hated nations on earth because of what they do, not because of who they are, what any jewish fanatic has to say, or what religion they practice. In fact, there are a great many Jews and jewish organizations who are anti-zionist themselves. You'll find more than a few of those organizations here ...
http://www.doublestandards.org/jaz1.html

... but they exist all over the world.

Religion is the greatest mind-fuck the world has ever known, and to argue the superiority of one religion over another based on what what someone has said is indicative of the incredible ignorance that befalls far too many.
 
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blackascoal said:
The argument that one religion is more evil than another is as mindless an argument as have ever existed. Fanatacism can be found in most religions, including Christianity and the religion of Jews. Fanatics all believe that their religion is superior to all others and they are all filled with arrogance. But, arrogance and spirituality are mutually exclusive and are inversely proportional.

Last year, Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, former Sephardic chief rabbi and an influential authority among conservative Jews, issued a fatwa asking the Israeli Army not to flinch from killing Palestinian civilians in the context of the ongoing military campaign against armed groups resisting the occupation. He mentioned in his fatwa, which received special attention from religious media outlets and hundreds of pamphlets distributed inside synagogues in Israel. that all Palestinians must be murdered, even the ones who are not participating in the war against terrorism. This wasn't enough for the revered rabbi, who said that this was not only a fatwa, but a religious duty from God that Jews must follow.

Yediot Ahronot newspaper reported on July 25, 2002 that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the current spiritual leader of the Shas political party in the Knesset (Israel's Parliament), said that until Christ the Savior arrives, he will send all Arabs to hellfire. "Why doesn't Ariel Sharon do what needs to be done? He's scared of the people of the world. But when the Savior Christ comes, he won't fear anyone. He will send all the Arabs to hell." Yosef described Arabs as snakes and said Jews should not trust them.

Rabbi Eli Albaz, who is one of the distinctive Eastern rabbis, he never misses an opportunity to attack Islam and condemn them all to death. He insists on complaining in front of his audience by telling jokes that address Muslims and Palestinians and using filthy language to attack Muslims. And Rabbi Eliyahu Reskin continuously ridicules the reconciliation attempts to create dialogue between Jewish rabbis and Arab officials. He believes that the only language of dialogue between Muslims and Jews should be bullets.

Many of these rabid Rabbis don't just save their hate for Islam, they also attack Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, other Jews, and anyone else who doesn't believe in their fanatical belief in a Jewish utopia. Jewish vigilante group organized by ultra-orthodox rabbis have been involved in hate crimes even in the US and preach their venom of hate and murder here and elsewhere everyday. The rabbis often quote a Talmudic ruling, which states "Our lives come first."

God talks to Bush and told him to go mass-murder hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis, including women, children, and babies for profit. A list of christian fundmentalists who preach hate of everybody, including people like Jerry Falwell in the mainstream are so well documented and known it unnecessary to even post their dementia. The KKK considered itself to be a christian organization. The bible itself is filled with murder, often at the hands of God, and it condones rape and slavery. Leviticus 24:44 "You may take your male and female slaves from the heathen nations around you ... and you may will them to your children like cattle."

Israel is one of the most hated nations on earth because of what they do, not because of who they are, what any jewish fanatic has to say, or what religion they practice. In fact, there are a great many Jews and jewish organizations who are anti-zionist themselves. You'll find more than a few of those organizations here ...
http://www.doublestandards.org/jaz1.html

... but they exist all over the world.

Religion is the greatest mind-fuck the world has ever known, and to argue the superiority of one religion over another based on what what someone has said is indicative of the incredible ignorance that befalls far too many.
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Not more evil. More explicitly theocratic. Islam and judaism are both explicity theocratic in their teachings. Jesus is actually more of a rebel figure against this backdrop, though the noahide liars try to make christianity seem like judaism for dummies.
 
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AssHatZombie said:
Not more evil. More explicitly theocratic. Islam and judaism are both explicity theocratic in their teachings. Jesus is actually more of a rebel figure against this backdrop, though the noahide liars try to make christianity seem like judaism for dummies.
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Modern western Christianity is the same, they want to run everything as well.
Never listened to the moral majority leaders AHZ ?
 
uscitizen said:
Modern western Christianity is the same, they want to run everything as well.
Never listened to the moral majority leaders AHZ ?
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It became theocratic under the catholic church. Theocracy is really not a direct teaching of christianity. Christians are not commanded to bring others under the rule of christian law by force. That's a noahide perversion of christianity, technically, if you wanna get into it.
 
Umm the moral majority leaders and such are not Catholic AHZ.
Is Robertson Catholic or was Foulwell ?
I personally saw Falwell and Robertson talking about thisr followers taking over the government of the USA. That was why Liberty university was turning our lawyers. I saw and heard it myself.
 
uscitizen said:
Umm the moral majority leaders and such are not Catholic AHZ.
Is Robertson Catholic or was Foulwell ?
I personally saw Falwell and Robertson talking about thisr followers taking over the government of the USA. That was why Liberty university was turning our lawyers. I saw and heard it myself.
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People are usually talking about the catholic church when they talk about christian theocracies.

But there is a theocratic bent to some of the modern evangelical movements, that is generally due to their old testament orientation, and their belief in premillenial dispensationalism, the belief that the jews and christians have separate and concurrently existing covenants with the same god, and that we're supposed to help the jews defend their promised land, in accordance with biblical scripture, preceeding the creation of some kind of new world religious order, the details of which get foggier and foggier as discussions go on.
 
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