Israeli Debaucle?

Care4all

Junior Member
Contributor
DEBACLE, not debaucle....

this is from an israeli newspaper, i believe?

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We are losing World War III

By Bradley Burston

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747340.html



There has never before been a war like this.

That is why we are losing it.

We don't know how to fight it. Not yet, at least.

From the start, the whole world has been watching this war, and for good reason:

This is the next great battle of World War III. And, as in Iraq, the war is not going well for the West.

There are parallels to the last world war, of course, beyond the newspaper cartoonists' and worldwide Israel-haters' first reflex of calling the Jews Nazis.

There is the danger that we are seeing a tipping point, in Iraq as well as in Lebanon, which will embolden radical Islam, and Iran in particular, to extend the battlefield of jihad indefinitely.

At its outset, the Second World War went staggeringly well for the Axis. German and Japanese tacticians were legions ahead of their Allied adversaries. Smarter, more creative, more innovative, more motivated, much more deadly.

The blitzkrieg caught all of Europe unawares and, within weeks, reeling. Pearl Harbor, the Twin Towers of its era, struck at an isolationist United States that was profoundly unprepared for war.

Allied military defeats followed in series for years, until endurance, faith, and appropriate fighting methods turned the tide.

Certainly there are those in Israel and the Jewish world who are perversely pleased by the way things have gone wrong for us. There is the Told You So brigade on the far right, which misses no chance to declare that withdrawal is the cause of this war, and is a mortal error that must never be repeated, no matter what, ever.

There is the supremely self-satisfied Not In My Name battalion on the far left, which suggests in its knee-jerk protests and pride at being called traitors, that Israel may have a right to defend itself, but should never really exercise it.

Why are we losing? It is because, in our haste to confront Hezbollah before Iran went nuclear, we went to war before we had the ways and means to win.

Give us the tools, the British said at the outset of WW II, and we'll finish the job. We now know that we went to this war without the tools.

After years of Military Intelligence warnings of Hezbollah's missile arsenal and vaguely comforting news items about the mystery-shrouded Nautilus Katyusha-killer, we now know that we knew next to nothing.

We are losing it because our prime minister, defense minister, and army chief, who are new at their jobs and have proven it at every opportunity, made outlandish, grandiose, and boastful claims at the outset of the campaign, speaking of disarming Hezbollah, creating a new order in Lebanon, creating a reality in which the Lebanese people themselves would turn on the terrorists and diminish their influence.

Even before we ran aground in the north, the words had a perversely familiar ring. They are the sound track of debacle. They are as dated and as current as a 16 mm version of Apocalypse Now screened in IDF forts in Lebanon in the '80s.

We've gone after infrastructure, and in so doing, caused immeasurable suffering to as many as a million Lebanese, a thousand of them dead, thousands of them maimed, hundreds of thousands of them displaced.

And there are still those, and they are many, who argue for More of the Same. Much more. For a start, "Erasing villages where Hezbollah operates."

But more of them same is likely to yield only more of the same failure.

With thousands of thousands of soldiers already in Lebanon, seven brigades and counting, after 4,600 IAF bombing runs , 150 of them Sunday night alone, 80 to 90 percent of Hezbolah's 2,500 fighters are alive and shooting. They are still capable of firing 200 rockets a day into Israel.

We are losing the war, in part, because our actions have only gained sympathy for Hezbollah.

Polls are now showing that nearly 90 percent of Lebanese ? including many who had serious doubts about Hezbollah in the past, now support the organization's war with Israel.

The war has so elevated Hezbollah in the eyes of the world, that terrorism authority Prof. Robert A. Pape, writing in The New York Times, could without flinching compare the group to "the multidimensional American civil-rights movement of the 1960s."

Oddly, one of the lessons of the war is that the government, fearing a backlash over the deaths of soldiers, has directed an offensive which has relied on remote control warfare, effectively causing the needless deaths of hundreds of civilians in Lebanon, and, in the process, putting a million Israelis in range of Katyushas and Fajrs.

It's true, this is World War III. And we are losing.

Cabinet minister Avi Dichter, head of the Shin Bet for much of the Intifada, suggested Monday that the government is heading for a change in direction in Lebanon, and not a moment too soon.

"Curtailing to the point of halting the rockets is the quintessential mission of the IDF. The IDF will need to find the formula to carry out this mission, whether from the air or by other means.

"The fact that this hasn't happened as yet, doesn't mean that this will not happen."

We have to fight smarter. We have to use diplomacy with more skill. But we don't have the option of rolling over and playing righteous. In a world war, you have to choose a side.

Our job now is to survive.

If the Second World War taught the Jews anything, it is this: History is not, fundamentally, written by its victors. History is written, and made, by its survivors. Hezbollah knows this. All they have to do to declare victory, is to survive.

The survival of the Jews is our victory as well. But we're going to have be a whole lot smarter than we have been, to come out of this.
 
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IHG should be on soon telling you how ridiculous it is to refer to this as WW3 ... oh ... so should Cypress.. but he wont because you are a Democrat and Cypress only responds to those he percieves as Bushites ...

Come on Cypress... tell Care4all how only Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity listeners refer to the Current World situation as WW3.
 
I was dwelling over the Wars this weekend ..particularly Israel .. and it made me wonder .. how close are we to a World revolt against Israel..and how close are the Israelites coming to once again losing their Mother land? Might they once again get chased out ... is History once again about ready to repeat itself?
Hard to imagine in this day in age and with the power behind Israel this could happen.. but if the World(outside of UK and USA) rallies behind the forces against Israel..there is no telling what could happen.
If this is indeed WW3 ... look out.
 
we all know that Israel has nukes....here is a clue: if no one uses them BEFORE an emboldened pan-arab army moves on Jerusalem and tries to take the western wall away from Israelis, Israel will be the first to use them since nagasaki and the advancing army and the capitals of the countries from where they came will be vaporized. go to the bank on that.
 
IHG should be on soon telling you how ridiculous it is to refer to this as WW3 ... oh ... so should Cypress.. but he wont because you are a Democrat and Cypress only responds to those he percieves as Bushites ...

Come on Cypress... tell Care4all how only Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity listeners refer to the Current World situation as WW3.
Well, since IH8 doesn't seem to be around, I shall do the honors.

All of this "WWII" talk is shear nonsense. It's either emotional alarmist nonsense or manipulative rhetorical nonsense, depending on the context. In this case, I believe we're looking at a bit of both: an overly emotional author with an agenda on the side.

Politcians are always fighting the last war. Most generals too. That's why there's a cliche for it.

There's more than a whiff of racist and religious bigotry in all this WWIII talk, too. The Crusader mentality that says "we" -- meaning the formerly Christian West -- will inevtiably find ourselves at war with the Evil Saracens yet again. Pfui!
 
IHG should be on soon telling you how ridiculous it is to refer to this as WW3 ... oh ... so should Cypress.. but he wont because you are a Democrat and Cypress only responds to those he percieves as Bushites ...

Come on Cypress... tell Care4all how only Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity listeners refer to the Current World situation as WW3.

LMAO!

You're comparing a couple of anonymous cyberspace posters, and some no-name journalist who are fear-mongering about a "world war 3", to the entire NeoCon media at Fox News, talk radio, etc?

ROTFLMAO!
 
LMAO!

You're comparing a couple of anonymous cyberspace posters, and some no-name journalist who are fear-mongering about a "world war 3", to the entire NeoCon media at Fox News, talk radio, etc?

ROTFLMAO!


I rest my case .... he's lost for words and he's craking up .... :pke:
 
Well, since IH8 doesn't seem to be around, I shall do the honors.

All of this "WWII" talk is shear nonsense. It's either emotional alarmist nonsense or manipulative rhetorical nonsense, depending on the context. In this case, I believe we're looking at a bit of both: an overly emotional author with an agenda on the side.

Politcians are always fighting the last war. Most generals too. That's why there's a cliche for it.

There's more than a whiff of racist and religious bigotry in all this WWIII talk, too. The Crusader mentality that says "we" -- meaning the formerly Christian West -- will inevtiably find ourselves at war with the Evil Saracens yet again. Pfui!



"Telling" I gather you are implying the religious bigotry is stemming from the west? hmmm ...
 
"Telling" I gather you are implying the religious bigotry is stemming from the west? hmmm ...
It has some roots in both sides. I'm only talking about the western bigots because I live in the west. It's up to people in the Muslim world to out their bigots. Which, in fact, many are, though you'd never know it from our mainstream media.
 
I rest my case .... he's lost for words and he's craking up .... :pke:


How about answering the question:

Are you comparing the fear-mongering rants of one anonymous cypberspace poster and a no-name israeli journalist, with the fear-mongering rants of giants in the american media: Fox News, Newt Gingrich, rush, hannity, etc, etc?
 
Well, since IH8 doesn't seem to be around, I shall do the honors.

All of this "WWII" talk is shear nonsense. It's either emotional alarmist nonsense or manipulative rhetorical nonsense, depending on the context. In this case, I believe we're looking at a bit of both: an overly emotional author with an agenda on the side.

Politcians are always fighting the last war. Most generals too. That's why there's a cliche for it.

There's more than a whiff of racist and religious bigotry in all this WWIII talk, too. The Crusader mentality that says "we" -- meaning the formerly Christian West -- will inevtiably find ourselves at war with the Evil Saracens yet again. Pfui!


Its not coincidence that the rightwing media machine (primarily) starting ginning up talk of a world war three, mere months before a midterm election.

It galvanizes the base: the christian end-timers and rapture crowd, the hand-wringing lydon larouche types, the anti-flag burners, the anti-gay types, the Paris Hilton anti-estate tax types, etc. etc. The GOP is covering all its bases.
 
How about answering the question:

Are you comparing the fear-mongering rants of one anonymous cypberspace poster and a no-name israeli journalist, with the fear-mongering rants of giants in the american media: Fox News, Newt Gingrich, rush, hannity, etc, etc?


This is your opinion only ... there are many people from all points of the political world that are trumpeting the WW3 drums ... only a fool such as you would label this a partisan emotion.
 
Its not coincidence that the rightwing media machine (primarily) starting ginning up talk of a world war three, mere months before a midterm election.

It galvanizes the base: the christian end-timers and rapture crowd, the hand-wringing lydon larouche types, the anti-flag burners, the anti-gay types, the Paris Hilton anti-estate tax types, etc. etc. The GOP is covering all its bases.


Show me the prominent and well know liberal blogger, pundits, and congressmen who have specifically said "this is World War 3!"
 
It has some roots in both sides. I'm only talking about the western bigots because I live in the west. It's up to people in the Muslim world to out their bigots. Which, in fact, many are, though you'd never know it from our mainstream media.

good point and I am glad that you recognize it ......

At the same time .. I dont call it bigotry to recognize those that wish to do you harm .. and calling a spade a spade ....
Islamic Terrorist regimes are real .. and they follow a plan that is theocratically deep rooted to rid the world of all those who do not subscribe to Islam.
Thats an extremist take... and a murderous one ....

I believe that to be a little more scary and threatening than a bunch of End Times Bible thumpers.
 
This is your opinion only ... there are many people from all points of the political world that are trumpeting the WW3 drums ... only a fool such as you would label this a partisan emotion.

BINGO! Ding Ding Ding Ding........

Yep. This "fear" of us now being in World War Three is an "emotion", as you put it. I agree completely. An emotional reaction devoid of any fact, evidence, or historical context.

There have been israeli war in lebanon before. Its a problem. Its tragic. But its not world war three.

The predominatly sunni arab states are not going to die, to support a theocratic shia movement in Lebanon.
 
Show me the prominent and well know liberal blogger, pundits, and congressmen who have specifically said "this is World War 3!"

no Cypress .. this aint going to work .. I dont have time for your bullshit games .... the discussion has been all over the cable news networks ....
Do your own homework ...
 
no Cypress .. this aint going to work .. I dont have time for your bullshit games .... the discussion has been all over the cable news networks ....
Do your own homework ...

No need to get angry. I simply asked for evidence that promient, well-know liberals congressmen and pundits were calling this "world war 3", as you asserted.

You can't name any, or provide any evidence for your assertion. Fair enough. I guess were done here.
 
BINGO! Ding Ding Ding Ding........

Yep. This "fear" of us now being in World War Three is an "emotion", as you put it. I agree completely. An emotional reaction devoid of any fact, evidence, or historical context.

There have been israeli war in lebanon before. Its a problem. Its tragic. But its not world war three.

The predominatly sunni arab states are not going to die, to support a theocratic shia movement in Lebanon.


World War ll was an emotional label by the News Media (NY Times) as well.. dont forget that ... as has been said .. you dont know you are in it ...untill you are deep in it ....
 
good point and I am glad that you recognize it ......

At the same time .. I dont call it bigotry to recognize those that wish to do you harm .. and calling a spade a spade ....
Islamic Terrorist regimes are real .. and they follow a plan that is theocratically deep rooted to rid the world of all those who do not subscribe to Islam.
Thats an extremist take... and a murderous one ....

I believe that to be a little more scary and threatening than a bunch of End Times Bible thumpers.
I see them as exactly the same. There's no more than a farthing's worth of difference between 'em. The only significant difference is that the Islamists are more prominent because such movements always appeal more to destitute people who see themselves as oppressed. The millenialists over here have fewer destitute people to feed on.

The root of the problem is neither Islam nor Islamists. The root of the problem is the fact that so much of the Muslim world is perenially stuck in poverty under repressive regimes. We are seen as aiding, or even pulling the strings of, the repressive regimes. Hence, we are the enemy. More than that, it's easier to blame the foreign puppet masters than it is to blame those of their own people who enrich themselves by keeping their fellows down.

Honestly, I don't believe that Islamist terrorists are ever going to have the capability of truly threatening the existence of the United States. They are never going to become as much of a threat as the Nazis were, say. They can't, in large part because of that same poverty of infrastructure that is the cornerstone of their support.
 
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