Israeli Debaucle?

Cypress said:
Its not coincidence that the rightwing media machine (primarily) starting ginning up talk of a world war three, mere months before a midterm election.

It galvanizes the base: the christian end-timers and rapture crowd, the hand-wringing lydon larouche types, the anti-flag burners, the anti-gay types, the Paris Hilton anti-estate tax types, etc. etc. The GOP is covering all its bases.
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Yep. It's the same sort of fear mongering they used last time. 9/11/2001 is now five years in the past, however. They need to give the boogyman a makeover to keep it current.
 
There is no such guarantee that world war III will be anything like world war II and to presume that it has to be compared to the warfare in world war II is foolish imo....

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I never said it was world war III btw and this TOPIC that you all chose to rant on has nothing to do with this article's point, which is that ISRAEL HAS MADE SOME MILITARY AND STRATEGIC MISTAKES, according to this israeli news article....

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Also, I find it foolish that we would not forsee where this war can lead...

yes, it is just a skirmish between israel and hezbollah in Lebanon....and this has happened before....and no world war 3....?

but 100,000 shiia in iraq protested on hezbollah's side in Bagdhad on Friday....

We should be concerned that our illegal war actions with Iraq could be the catalist that throws this in to a war bigger than it should be....

Iraq sides with Iran and hezbollah, and Lebanon ....Russia sides with Iran cuz of oil deals... china sides with Iran cuz of oil deals......south america sides with China and Russia....cuz of oil deals.... the EU hates Israel and is in a quagmire over it....

I think the possibilities are certainly there and that if it were up to this administration..... :(:(:(...they just might entice the whole damn thing even on farther than they already have with the illegal war in IRAQ....?

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Ornot is right about why they hate us.....because they are impoverished and believe the west is the reason such is the case, because we help the royalty that is holding them down....

care
 
and until we begin to incorporate some sense of understanding as to the impacts of their socioeconomic condition on their attitudes and turn that understanding into action, and stop thinking that the only way to get muslims to stop wanting to kill us is by killing them, we will be forced to keep killing them to no good end.
 
maineman said:
and until we begin to incorporate some sense of understanding as to the impacts of their socioeconomic condition on their attitudes and turn that understanding into action, and stop thinking that the only way to get muslims to stop wanting to kill us is by killing them, we will be forced to keep killing them to no good end.
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Exactly so.
 
maineman said:
and until we begin to incorporate some sense of understanding as to the impacts of their socioeconomic condition on their attitudes and turn that understanding into action, and stop thinking that the only way to get muslims to stop wanting to kill us is by killing them, we will be forced to keep killing them to no good end.
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very true.
 
Cypress said:
Its not coincidence that the rightwing media machine (primarily) starting ginning up talk of a world war three, mere months before a midterm election.

It galvanizes the base: the christian end-timers and rapture crowd, the hand-wringing lydon larouche types, the anti-flag burners, the anti-gay types, the Paris Hilton anti-estate tax types, etc. etc. The GOP is covering all its bases.
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Yes. It also reminds people that they mustn't forget to be afraid.
 
klaatu said:
World War ll was an emotional label by the News Media (NY Times) as well.. dont forget that ... as has been said .. you dont know you are in it ...untill you are deep in it ....
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If you don't know you are in it until you are deep in it...how do all of the people you claim are trumpeting this as WWIII know it already?
 
klaatu said:
This is your opinion only ... there are many people from all points of the political world that are trumpeting the WW3 drums ... only a fool such as you would label this a partisan emotion.
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Bullshit. There are no mainstream liberals calling this ww3, and you can't name one. It's GOP fearmongering for the elections, because fear is all they have to sell.
 
It is not a matter of whether this IS WWIII but if this has the potential to escalate and drag in the remainder of the ME. If it drags the remainder of the ME in, then this will cause such tensions that it is highly likely to drag other areas of the world in.

The only way to resolve this is to jerk both chains, but until the West develops a pair of testicles and recognises the terrorism used by both sides, this will continue.

As it stands, any UN resolution to this situation is going to be heavily weighted towards our pet terrorists, Israel. This will be seen in the Arab world as yet another sign of hypocritical support for Israeli terrorism whilst decrying Arab terrorism and won't resolve the situation in the slightest, merely deferring the solution for another generation.

Unfortunately, the West doesn't have the ability to find a permanent solution at the moment. We have our hands tied by poor leadership, Blair to weak to make an impact, and the Bush / Bolton Israeli-terrorism-loving duo are highly unlikely to demand peace, being Israel's bitches.....
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I see them as exactly the same. There's no more than a farthing's worth of difference between 'em. The only significant difference is that the Islamists are more prominent because such movements always appeal more to destitute people who see themselves as oppressed. The millenialists over here have fewer destitute people to feed on.

The root of the problem is neither Islam nor Islamists. The root of the problem is the fact that so much of the Muslim world is perenially stuck in poverty under repressive regimes. We are seen as aiding, or even pulling the strings of, the repressive regimes. Hence, we are the enemy. More than that, it's easier to blame the foreign puppet masters than it is to blame those of their own people who enrich themselves by keeping their fellows down.

Honestly, I don't believe that Islamist terrorists are ever going to have the capability of truly threatening the existence of the United States. They are never going to become as much of a threat as the Nazis were, say. They can't, in large part because of that same poverty of infrastructure that is the cornerstone of their support.
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I agree with you on the root of the problem .... with the exception of their leaders role. It is up to their leaders to direct the people towards the right way... this is where they fail. They are the oppressors ..., the fasicts. Yet the people continue to follow them. Why? Because they are conditioned from early childhood.
You quickly drift into "blame the west" mode because we have corporate interests over there.. well my green freind ... those corporate interests help maintain a standard of living that you freely excercise and are accusmed to.
So which way would you have it? Should we have stopped doing business with the entire Arab/Musim world because of the oppression forced on their people? Well.. that smells like embargo .. the same type of embargos that you to the left often dissaprove of .. claiming the USA/West have no right interfering with the internal interests of other Countries. Same with the people of these oppressed Countries .. if we (The West) dont do anything they resent us for supporting their Oppressive Leadership, when we do something we are the evil empire wishing to take over their region and steal their oil. Cant have it both ways.
Back to their leadership ... we are talking about leadership that oppresses and abuses the most basic of human rights ... Women have very little rights, Children are living in abusive conditions, cruel and unusual punishment ... and then we scratch our heads and say the West is partly to blame? How?" This is their culture ... they have to turn it around internally. They have to stand up and demand freedom. The people of the Arab/Muslim world need to revolt against their own tyrranical and fascist forms of leadership. Theya are a long ways from that.

What we are doing in Iraq is clearly not working.... it was a blunder from the beginning .... but we do need to to recognize and defend against regimes that wish to do us harm.
Do I beleive these Jihad terrorist group are a threat to the USA? Well.. if they are able to sneak in a dirty bomb here and there.. .yes. If they are able to sneak in and internally manufacture a WMD .. yes. We have to guard against it and if we find a threat brewing we must weed it out.

Ornot ... you make it very clear that in your opinion.. we are the ultimate evil .. and everyone else is rightous .... Id like to see you live under an oppressive Islamic rule ....
 
klaatu said:
Do I beleive these Jihad terrorist group are a threat to the USA? Well.. if they are able to sneak in a dirty bomb here and there.. .yes. If they are able to sneak in and internally manufacture a WMD .. yes. We have to guard against it and if we find a threat brewing we must weed it out.
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I agree wholeheartedly, which is even more reason the invasion. conquest, and occupatation of Iraq is so negligent. Those resources would be MUCH better spent in securing our borders and our ports and by REALLY beefing up our human intelligence efforts so that we could be aware of such internal plots should they arise.
 
You quickly drift into "blame the west" mode because we have corporate interests over there.. well my green freind ...

We directly maintain oppressive regimes. FDR signed a deal with the House of Saud that the US would protect and uphold the regime in exchange for access to their oil markets. Thus GW1.

We (the West) cannot absolve ourselves of this mess easily. We are still the mercantile pirates we were during the C18th and C19th...
 
I agree wholeheartedly, which is even more reason the invasion. conquest, and occupatation of Iraq is so negligent. Those resources would be MUCH better spent in securing our borders and our ports and by REALLY beefing up our human intelligence efforts so that we could be aware of such internal plots should they arise.

Iraq has done nothing but feed the Jihadist movement.
 
precisely...it is absolutely counter-productive. It has done NOTHING that it set out to do other than depose of a strong arm dictator who, besides keeping his thumb on the festering sunni/shiite enmity, also acted as a regional foil for Iranian hegemony which we now see coming to flower in Lebanon. And all of the men money and materials we have flushed down the shitter accomplishing BAD things in Iraq could have been used to actually fight the war against the folks who attacked us.

This is a terrible war and folks like Dixie should be run out of town on a rail for supporting it.
 
This is a terrible war and folks like Dixie should be run out of town on a rail for supporting it.

Yes, but what does Dixie know.... He supports terrorism provided it is conducted in 'our' name....
 
AnyOldIron said:
I agree wholeheartedly, which is even more reason the invasion. conquest, and occupatation of Iraq is so negligent. Those resources would be MUCH better spent in securing our borders and our ports and by REALLY beefing up our human intelligence efforts so that we could be aware of such internal plots should they arise.

Iraq has done nothing but feed the Jihadist movement.
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I agree! I admit.. like so many others .. that I fell into the euphoric trap ...

But my eyes have been opened ...

but that doesnt make what their leaders do justifiable .... they are fascist regimes that need to be weeded out ..

And I also agree that the western oligarchy needs addressing as well....
but at least we have a measure of freedom and stand a much better chance of fleeing from the shackles of economic slavery and the road to surfdom.
 
Care4all said:
DEBACLE, not debaucle....

this is from an israeli newspaper, i believe?

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We are losing World War III

By Bradley Burston

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747340.html



There has never before been a war like this.

That is why we are losing it.

We don't know how to fight it. Not yet, at least.

From the start, the whole world has been watching this war, and for good reason:

This is the next great battle of World War III. And, as in Iraq, the war is not going well for the West.

There are parallels to the last world war, of course, beyond the newspaper cartoonists' and worldwide Israel-haters' first reflex of calling the Jews Nazis.

There is the danger that we are seeing a tipping point, in Iraq as well as in Lebanon, which will embolden radical Islam, and Iran in particular, to extend the battlefield of jihad indefinitely.

At its outset, the Second World War went staggeringly well for the Axis. German and Japanese tacticians were legions ahead of their Allied adversaries. Smarter, more creative, more innovative, more motivated, much more deadly.

The blitzkrieg caught all of Europe unawares and, within weeks, reeling. Pearl Harbor, the Twin Towers of its era, struck at an isolationist United States that was profoundly unprepared for war.

Allied military defeats followed in series for years, until endurance, faith, and appropriate fighting methods turned the tide.

Certainly there are those in Israel and the Jewish world who are perversely pleased by the way things have gone wrong for us. There is the Told You So brigade on the far right, which misses no chance to declare that withdrawal is the cause of this war, and is a mortal error that must never be repeated, no matter what, ever.

There is the supremely self-satisfied Not In My Name battalion on the far left, which suggests in its knee-jerk protests and pride at being called traitors, that Israel may have a right to defend itself, but should never really exercise it.

Why are we losing? It is because, in our haste to confront Hezbollah before Iran went nuclear, we went to war before we had the ways and means to win.

Give us the tools, the British said at the outset of WW II, and we'll finish the job. We now know that we went to this war without the tools.

After years of Military Intelligence warnings of Hezbollah's missile arsenal and vaguely comforting news items about the mystery-shrouded Nautilus Katyusha-killer, we now know that we knew next to nothing.

We are losing it because our prime minister, defense minister, and army chief, who are new at their jobs and have proven it at every opportunity, made outlandish, grandiose, and boastful claims at the outset of the campaign, speaking of disarming Hezbollah, creating a new order in Lebanon, creating a reality in which the Lebanese people themselves would turn on the terrorists and diminish their influence.

Even before we ran aground in the north, the words had a perversely familiar ring. They are the sound track of debacle. They are as dated and as current as a 16 mm version of Apocalypse Now screened in IDF forts in Lebanon in the '80s.

We've gone after infrastructure, and in so doing, caused immeasurable suffering to as many as a million Lebanese, a thousand of them dead, thousands of them maimed, hundreds of thousands of them displaced.

And there are still those, and they are many, who argue for More of the Same. Much more. For a start, "Erasing villages where Hezbollah operates."

But more of them same is likely to yield only more of the same failure.

With thousands of thousands of soldiers already in Lebanon, seven brigades and counting, after 4,600 IAF bombing runs , 150 of them Sunday night alone, 80 to 90 percent of Hezbolah's 2,500 fighters are alive and shooting. They are still capable of firing 200 rockets a day into Israel.

We are losing the war, in part, because our actions have only gained sympathy for Hezbollah.

Polls are now showing that nearly 90 percent of Lebanese ? including many who had serious doubts about Hezbollah in the past, now support the organization's war with Israel.

The war has so elevated Hezbollah in the eyes of the world, that terrorism authority Prof. Robert A. Pape, writing in The New York Times, could without flinching compare the group to "the multidimensional American civil-rights movement of the 1960s."

Oddly, one of the lessons of the war is that the government, fearing a backlash over the deaths of soldiers, has directed an offensive which has relied on remote control warfare, effectively causing the needless deaths of hundreds of civilians in Lebanon, and, in the process, putting a million Israelis in range of Katyushas and Fajrs.

It's true, this is World War III. And we are losing.

Cabinet minister Avi Dichter, head of the Shin Bet for much of the Intifada, suggested Monday that the government is heading for a change in direction in Lebanon, and not a moment too soon.

"Curtailing to the point of halting the rockets is the quintessential mission of the IDF. The IDF will need to find the formula to carry out this mission, whether from the air or by other means.

"The fact that this hasn't happened as yet, doesn't mean that this will not happen."

We have to fight smarter. We have to use diplomacy with more skill. But we don't have the option of rolling over and playing righteous. In a world war, you have to choose a side.

Our job now is to survive.

If the Second World War taught the Jews anything, it is this: History is not, fundamentally, written by its victors. History is written, and made, by its survivors. Hezbollah knows this. All they have to do to declare victory, is to survive.

The survival of the Jews is our victory as well. But we're going to have be a whole lot smarter than we have been, to come out of this.
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You're totally wrong. The War in Iraq does not really represent the war against islam. The world is losing the war against islam and has been for years. if you new world order craptards hadn't allowed islam to invade europe and called minutemen vigilantes for watching the border, we might be behind your adventure in iraq, but the obvious truth is that the "war on terror" is only going to get serious when it comes to defending israel. Everywhere else it's the multicultural lie that must prevail. When you fight for nobody else, nobody else will fight for you. See how that works? Jew-boy?
 
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