It's time to move to the popular vote deciding elections

The Altair 8080 was the first mass produced PC, produced a good three years before Tandy produced the TRS-80. Tandy did distribute their computers through their Radio Shack stores, but it was the Tandy Corporation that developed it.

Altair was out of New Mexico. The TRS-80 was designed by a Californian in the process of moving to Texas. Everyone involved with both were swirling around Homebrew Computer Club, and its predecessor in Menlo Park, California.

Not correct.

The Wang 2200 and Parc Alto were both released in 1975. Both based on the Intel 8008. Both pre-date the Altair.

In 1976, the Apple 1 was released.

It was three years later that the TRS-80 based on the immensely powerful (for the time) Zillog Z80 - in 1978. Apple followed quickly with the Apple II - based on the MOS 6502 (I wrote a compiler for that chip)

It's astounding really how short the 8 bit era was. 1979 brought the Motorola 68000 - a 16 bit chip. In 1980 Intel followed with the venerable 8086 and began their long dominance.


I programmed them all back then. The Motorola 68000 series was by far the better chip, but the Intel was cheaper so most people bought those when true PC's came along while businesses went with the TI and the better OS, also expensive for its day. The earlier ones weren't sold in any great numbers for personal use until the Trash 80 came along. Apple's first PCs didn't do much either. I have versions of all the earlier ones, and the TRS 80 and the TI's are the more useful and mass produced in larger numbers. The 8086's made a splash because of the low price; the chips themselves were clusterfucks of design and programming, and the DOS OS was garbage as well, and so was Windows, which didn't get really stable until a few oem versions of 98 came along, and it took Windows 7 to become a decent OS. the only reason the PC industry didn't take off in Texas is Charles Tandy got cold feet and didn't want to risk the massive investment in what was then a rich kid's hobby horse.
 
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DOS is a transposition of CP/M to the x86 world, and added one new feature. CP/M derived from ISIS, not Unix. Unix first appeared in the Boston area. AT&T did NOT write Unix. They wrote a predecessor called Multix.



AT&T was the primary developer of Unix, via Bell Labs. Both Apple and Windows stole heavily from it in developing their software.

PARC never went anywhere. Xerox was great at innovating new tech, but in this case sucked at follow through in product development.

And, PC stands for 'personal computers',not mainframes and servers.
 
All in all, the SDTC is manufacturing less and less, they whine more and more, and are losing more and more of their population, fleeing the tyranny of the dictatorship there.


It has only been there this long because it's where the CEO's and developers wanted to live, near a college town. They can no longer get skilled people to move there and work given the exorbitant cost of living and now even the green card demographics have gotten the word. You can do better driving a truck in Amarillo than moving to California for less than $100K a year back in the 1990's. and it only got worse after, but of course the zillioniares and managers are completely oblivious to how the other half lives.
 
PARC Wally.

Palo Alto Research Center, Massive innovation came through PARC. It is what created Silicone Valley. Xerox led the revolution from big iron to the world we know today.

Shockley Semiconductor Laboratory is what created Silicon Valley. I really do not know what created "Silicone Valley", but I would assume it has to do with breast implants.

It all happened 15 years before PARC. I actually saw one of the Traitorous Eights signed bills.

In fairness, Stanford University was trying to support research even before Shockley, but Shockley was the beginning of private enterprise research.
 
How would the Altair ship with a monitor? Lacking a video processing unit, as it did? There was a teletype option.
At the time, no one was shipping with a monitor. The monitors were TVs, which meant you could only get 40 columns of text. People were buying graphics boards to hook up Altairs to TVs before the TRS even was released.
 
I programmed them all back then. The Motorola 68000 series was by far the better chip, but the Intel was cheaper so most people bought those when true PC's came along while businesses went with the TI and the better OS, also expensive for its day. The earlier ones weren't sold in any great numbers for personal use until the Trash 80 came along. Apple's first PCs didn't do much either. I have versions of all the earlier ones, and the TRS 80 and the TI's are the more useful and mass produced in larger numbers. The 8086's made a splash because of the low price; the chips themselves were clusterfucks of design and programming, and the DOS OS was garbage as well, and so was Windows, which didn't get really stable until a few oem versions of 98 came along, and it took Windows 7 to become a decent OS. the only reason the PC industry didn't take off in Texas is Charles Tandy got cold feet and didn't want to risk the massive investment in what was then a rich kid's hobby horse.
I have to agree with you there. The Motorola 68000 was a decade or two ahead of anything from Intel. IBM's engineers said they would be crazy not to use the 68000. But IBM's business people realized they had more control over Intel, so went with them. Since then, Intel has put crazy amount of engineering to make the x86 work well.

DOS was not a modern operating system, and did not try to be one. It was what it was, a disk operating system(DOS), mainly just trying to run a disk. I get the feeling you realize that the programming basically had 100% control over the computer, and usually ignored DOS after they were loaded (except for accessing the disk).

Windows up until 95 was just a nice interface onto DOS. Windows 95 began to be a modern operating system. Not a great one, but a real one.

Silicon Valley had the critical mass nowhere else had. That is just a fact. Traditionally, you could breakdown the computer industry into three equal parts: Silicon Valley, the rest of America, and the rest of the world.
 
States like California and New Jersey do not get as much of their highways paid for by the federal government as states like Wyoming and Texas. I can understand Wyoming, it is a big state with few people. Why exactly does the rest of the country need to subsidize Texas?
why are you subsidizing illegal immigrants?
 
I programmed them all back then. The Motorola 68000 series was by far the better chip, but the Intel was cheaper so most people bought those when true PC's came along while businesses went with the TI and the better OS, also expensive for its day. The earlier ones weren't sold in any great numbers for personal use until the Trash 80 came along. Apple's first PCs didn't do much either. I have versions of all the earlier ones, and the TRS 80 and the TI's are the more useful and mass produced in larger numbers. The 8086's made a splash because of the low price; the chips themselves were clusterfucks of design and programming, and the DOS OS was garbage as well, and so was Windows, which didn't get really stable until a few oem versions of 98 came along, and it took Windows 7 to become a decent OS. the only reason the PC industry didn't take off in Texas is Charles Tandy got cold feet and didn't want to risk the massive investment in what was then a rich kid's hobby horse.

As @Into the Night already pointed out, DOS was a ripoff of CP/M. There were actually references to CP/M directly in the code Gates sent to IBM.

The 8086 was a very good chip, the problem is that it was expensive. So Intel brought out the crippled 8088, an 8-bit variant that was far cheaper, but could only address 64K of memory. To compensate, Intel added the insane offset system of dword+nibble to address a full 1mb of RAM. Then Gates and Allen set DOS to only address 256K - later expanded to 640K.

I had a TRS-80 in the day, but found the Apple II a far better machine. the 6502 was a far more elegant chip when working with assembly. I had Rodney Zaks "Programming the Z-80" as a Bible for the Trash 80, but never truly felt confident with it. The 6502 fit like a well worn glove. Everything in the address space was logically laid out and made sense. The registers were simple and logical. Once the Comadors came out, the 6502 was everywhere. Though vastly inferior to the Apple, they were cheap and every small business in the Southland had one. Kept me fed for a lot of years.
 
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PARC Wally.

Palo Alto Research Center, Massive innovation came through PARC. It is what created Silicone Valley. Xerox led the revolution from big iron to the world we know today.

PARC has an interesting history, but it did not create 'silicon valley', and Xerox die not lead the nation from big iron to the PC either.

PARC did like the concept of the 'theatrical operating system', but still supported the rX type of system underneath it.
In the 'theatrical operating system', which was developed at the University of Illinois (not PARC), the screen is treated as a 'stage', and you would costume your characters (loadable fonts) and 'choreograph' them on the stage as the method of programming. Later this became known as the 'windows' style operating system. PARC did develop this into a kind of tablet, and they invented the mouse (which was really just a modification of a slewball, used in air traffic control systems since WW2). The U of Illinois called their system Plato, which ran as a subsystem under NOS on a pair of Cyber 174 mainframes.

When PARC presented their wonderful machine to the execs at Xerox, it was rejected, since Xerox made copiers, not computers.
The leader of that project, Dr. Alan Kay, quit and took his crew with him to Apple, where the project was retooled as the Lisa.

The Lisa, which was named after the daughter that Steve Jobs had abandoned (!), was a failure in the marketplace because it was too expensive.

To retool into a less expensive machine, they contracted with Microsoft (and Bill Gates(!)) to condense the thing down so it would fit. That's how Microsoft got their hands on this type of OS. When the Macintosh hit the market, Windows soon followed, which offered color (not black and white) and ran on the rather large number of PCs already running DOS. The mouse was used for both systems, and PARC and Xerox never got proper credit for it.

Plato had no mouse, but used a touch screen instead. It's special terminals were all based on the 8080. It didn't use EBCDIC, baudot, or ASCII, but instead used a special 20 bit telegraph code, which Control Data called CDCDC (Control Data Corporation's Date Code). It was the first theatrical operating system, what we call Windows or X Windows today.

The first desktop computer wasn't developed in California. It was developed north of Boston in a town called Tewksbury. It was the Wang 2200. This machine had it's own display and keyboard and ran a rather extensive version of a nonstructured BASIC running as a condensor ('compiling' to an intermediate code and interpreting that, similar to the way Python runs. This mass produced machine was first marketed in 1973 and had no microprocessors in it. The processor was implemented entirely in TTL. It was most popular for business, hospital, and college use. Only later did updated versions of it came out that started incorporating LSI chips, first starting the the u793 (a disk controller), and an AY-1015 (a serial port controller).

The first 'portable' (more of a 'luggable') computer was the Osborne, developed from the failed Sol-20 project. The Osborne was fairly successful in the market, but they carried a fatal flaw, which was mounting several bypass capacitors too close to the mounting rails for the circuit board. These were tantalum capacitors, and if one burned due to shorting out against the rails, people simply discarded the smoking stinking thing rather than try to fix it. It ran CP/M, P, ISIS, or some other 8080 based OS.
 
Not correct.

The Wang 2200 and Parc Alto were both released in 1975. Both based on the Intel 8008. Both pre-date the Altair.

In 1976, the Apple 1 was released.

It was three years later that the TRS-80 based on the immensely powerful (for the time) Zillog Z80 - in 1978. Apple followed quickly with the Apple II - based on the MOS 6502 (I wrote a compiler for that chip)

It's astounding really how short the 8 bit era was. 1979 brought the Motorola 68000 - a 16 bit chip. In 1980 Intel followed with the venerable 8086 and began their long dominance.
The Wang 2200 was released in 1973, and did not use a microprocessor at all. The CPU was built entirely out of TTL.

The 68000 was a wonderful design, with it's 16/16/16/32 design. It sported a flat memory model. Some computers were built with it, including the Macintosh, and NEXT computers. CP/M was even translated over for it (called CP/M68K).

When Intel produced the 8080 and 8085 series, they were already thinking of segmented memory, implementing that in software in ISIS. The 8086, chosen by IBM to be 'Intel compatible', finally implemented this line of thinking in hardware...probably the most horrible choice of processor imaginable with it's 8/16/16/24S design. This was the only processor constructed that was not OTIS compliant, making building a linker and loader for it a nightmare. These two programs, part of every operating system define the total power of that operating system.

But...IBM had the money to force the issue, AND the backing of Microsoft. IBM also extensively documented most aspects of the machine in their manuals, creating the first 'open source hardware' platform. It wasn't long before others began designing 'compatibles' (many of which were of questionable quality!). Over time, they all failed, including IBM itself. The 'compatible' became an Asian manufactured item, and the BIOS with it.

Today, instead of getting an 'orchard white' colored machine from IBM, you go out and find a sexy looking case for your machine (probably made in China), often black or even red, chose your processor from an extensive list from Intel or AMD, and put the whole thing together almost like a LEGO project. Load up your favorite OS such as Windows or one of the many distributions of Linux (I roll my own!), and you're off and running. The browser is the primary interface people use today now, depending on similar machines installed in data centers forming 'The Cloud'; a set of servers providing remote storage and other services.

Many people today do not know any of this history of computing. They've never seen anything serious written in assembly language or even BASIC. There are people today that have never seen a cassette tape, once popular for storing computer data and audio.
 
How would the Altair ship with a monitor? Lacking a video processing unit, as it did? There was a teletype option.
The Altair (and later the Imsai, a better built version) had no monitor. They didn't even have a video interface. They depended entirely on a serial port (and THAT was optional!) as a console.

Most folks used either an ASR33 Teletype, or one the many 'glass teletypes' or computer terminal, popular with minicomputers at the time.
 

AT&T was the primary developer of Unix, via Bell Labs. Both Apple and Windows stole heavily from it in developing their software.

PARC never went anywhere. Xerox was great at innovating new tech, but in this case sucked at follow through in product development.

And, PC stands for 'personal computers',not mainframes and servers.
AT&T did not develop Unix. They developed Multix, a rather well designed rX based OS that inspired the development of Unix in the Boston area.

PARC was Xerox's biggest disaster.

There were at the time, PC's (personal computers, especially The PC, or the IBM PC open source hardware design), mainframes, and minicomputers (such as the DEC, Nova, and HP 2100 series systems).

The Cloud today is made up primarily of PC's...just lots of them, wired into a common network, such as AWS.
 
As @Into the Night already pointed out, DOS was a ripoff of CP/M. There were actually references to CP/M directly in the code Gates sent to IBM.
Yup. The slime didn't even change the system call structure. It used EXACTLY the same system calls as CP/M, just slightly expanded.
The 8086 was a very good chip, the problem is that it was expensive. So Intel brought out the crippled 8088, an 8-bit variant that was far cheaper, but could only address 64K of memory. To compensate, Intel added the insane offset system of dword+nibble to address a full 1mb of RAM. Then Gates and Allen set DOS to only address 256K - later expanded to 640K.
The curse of segmented memory...the only processor ever developed that was not even OTIS compliant.
I had a TRS-80 in the day, but found the Apple II a far better machine.
This is kind of a Ford/Chevy war, like Emacs/VI war, or Linux/Windows war.
The Apple II was the only machine that sported a HALF density floppy drive (not even single density!). This was due to the wacky way that the Great Woz developed the drive interface hardware. The seek mechanism of the drives themselves were built like a cheap kid's record player inside, which created that characteristic, "Flap..flap...flap..." sound when the discs recalibrated.
the 6502 was a far more elegant chip when working with assembly. I had Rodney Zaks "Programming the Z-80" as a Bible for the Trash 80, but never truly felt confident with it. The 6502 fit like a well worn glove. Everything in the address space was logically laid out and made sense. The registers were simple and logical. Once the Comadors came out, the 6502 was everywhere. Though vastly inferior to the Apple, they were cheap and every small business in the Southland had one. Kept me fed for a lot of years.
The 6502 did have a segmentation problem, however, particularly when handling the S register. It's other registers could get to the rest of 64k of memory with no problem.

The Z80 was a simple flat memory model of 64k, had no segmentation of any kind, had more registers, which could be combined into 16 and 32 bit values.

Once again, your feelings for the 6502 and the Z80 are based on what you are used to, rather than the capabilities of the processors themselves. The Rockwell vs Zilog war. As for me, I preferred the Z80.

At least the 6502 had the SEX instruction. :p
 
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