Joan of Arc and Nine Other "Queer" Saints

poet said:
Why are you bothered by the notion, that then, as now, people lead "secret lives"....unless you're feeling that "being gay", lessens an individual or makes them unworthy or unsaintly. There was testimony to the likelihood of Newman being gay. And given the duplicitous stance of the Roman Catholic church on everything from celibacy to homosexual priests, is it so difficult to fathom?
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It isn't hard to fathom. But for someone to have spent their life in celibacy shows a dedication to their faith. For you to toss out that dedication in order to further a political agenda is no better than some of the tactics DY has used to smear gays.

If there is some real evidence that these people were gay, then show it. I have no problem with them being either gay or straight. But if these people led lives of sacrifice and dedication to the church, we should not smear them with unfounded accusations of leading "secret lives".
 
poet said:
Systems, have an inherent tendency to "suck". That, by no means, should dissuade one from acknowledging and assuming the obvious, and, sometimes, the not so obvious.
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I fail to see what is obvious about any of this. Does unmarried equal gay?
 
poet said:
Folks have been judged guilty, on far less.
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Indeed they have. But I think the goal should be to stop that rather than to continue judging more people without actual evidence. Don't you?
 
WinterBorn said:
Indeed they have. But I think the goal should be to stop that rather than to continue judging more people without actual evidence. Don't you?
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Hey, if 3 independent people said you did "it", you did it. And if Cardinal Newman was rumored to have been gay, and wanted to be buried with his best and closest friend, it's a duck.
 
poet said:
Hey, if 3 independent people said you did "it", you did it. And if Cardinal Newman was rumored to have been gay, and wanted to be buried with his best and closest friend, it's a duck.
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So rumors are all it takes now? The burial next to his best friend is not much of an issue.

Did anyone come out and say they slept with him or that he did anything inappropriate?

I am not one of the people who sees being gay as anything less than being straight. But I do take issue with throwing out a lifetime of celibacy and service to ones faith based on nothing more than unfounded rumors.
 
I am also curious about the supposition that Joan of Arc was a lesbian.

Is there anything in the way of evidence for that?
 
WinterBorn said:
So rumors are all it takes now? The burial next to his best friend is not much of an issue.

Did anyone come out and say they slept with him or that he did anything inappropriate?

I am not one of the people who sees being gay as anything less than being straight. But I do take issue with throwing out a lifetime of celibacy and service to ones faith based on nothing more than unfounded rumors.
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Please. Are you familiar with the Emmett Till case? Rumors about Barack Obama being gay, or being born in Kenya, or being a Muslim? You know damn well, all it takes is rumors.
Do you have proof of anyone's celibacy, other than their word for it? Of course not. Folks say a lot. And a lot of it untrue. Especially, in light of current day politics, and religious scandal. I wouldn't put anything past anyone. It seems your stance is inconsistent. Either acknowledge that there are things we can never know for sure, and can merely speculate on, or plausibility is plausible.
 
WinterBorn said:
I am also curious about the supposition that Joan of Arc was a lesbian.

Is there anything in the way of evidence for that?
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Don't take issue with me...take issue with the author of the article found at Huff Post. If you had gone to the link, each saint listed has a "write up" alluding to the viewpoint. Damn.
 
poet said:
Please. Are you familiar with the Emmett Till case? Rumors about Barack Obama being gay, or being born in Kenya, or being a Muslim? You know damn well, all it takes is rumors.
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Emmett Till was murdered because he was black. The nonsense about his flirting with a white woman was just an excuse for backwards racists to murder. That is certainly not justification for spreading other unfounded rumors.

As for the nonsense about Obama, when I saw those rumors posted I usually called them on it, just like I am doing here. Whether something is right or wrong does not depend on whether it has been done before.

poet said:
Do you have proof of anyone's celibacy, other than their word for it? Of course not. Folks say a lot. And a lot of it untrue. Especially, in light of current day politics, and religious scandal. I wouldn't put anything past anyone. It seems your stance is inconsistent. Either acknowledge that there are things we can never know for sure, and can merely speculate on, or plausibility is plausible.
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No, we have no proof of celibacy. We can only prove when they are caught not being celibate. Yes, people do lie. But assuming people lie because it furthers a political agenda is no better than lying about gays being immoral or claiming they are mentally ill.

I can speculate all day. But to post a list of "queer" saints based solely on that speculation is to dismiss the lives those people led. And I think that is just as wrong as dismissing a person's life because they are back, hispanic or gay.
 
poet said:
Don't take issue with me...take issue with the author of the article found at Huff Post. If you had gone to the link, each saint listed has a "write up" alluding to the viewpoint. Damn.
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Ok, let me show one area in which the author ignores historical fact in favor of "outing" a historical figure.

His claim that Joan of Arc wore mens clothing because she wanted to do so ignores the documentation that, after being ordered to wear women's clothing and doing so, a nobleman visited her and tried to molest her. Her dress was reportedly stolen. She donned men's clothing to avoid being molested and raped in prison. It made her less attractive, less womanly, and made the molestation and rape more difficult.

You can find evidence of this in the testimony of people who were actually present at her first trial and later testified at the nullification trials.

http://www.stjoan-center.com/Trials/#nullification
 
WinterBorn said:
Ok, let me show one area in which the author ignores historical fact in favor of "outing" a historical figure.

His claim that Joan of Arc wore mens clothing because she wanted to do so ignores the documentation that, after being ordered to wear women's clothing and doing so, a nobleman visited her and tried to molest her. Her dress was reportedly stolen. She donned men's clothing to avoid being molested and raped in prison. It made her less attractive, less womanly, and made the molestation and rape more difficult.

You can find evidence of this in the testimony of people who were actually present at her first trial and later testified at the nullification trials.

http://www.stjoan-center.com/Trials/#nullification
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Right. And given the dismissal of women, even today, rabble and countrymen were going to follow around a girl, in whom they saw femininity, not strength, conviction and the fearlessness of a male warrior.
 
WinterBorn said:
Emmett Till was murdered because he was black. The nonsense about his flirting with a white woman was just an excuse for backwards racists to murder. That is certainly not justification for spreading other unfounded rumors.

As for the nonsense about Obama, when I saw those rumors posted I usually called them on it, just like I am doing here. Whether something is right or wrong does not depend on whether it has been done before.



No, we have no proof of celibacy. We can only prove when they are caught not being celibate. Yes, people do lie. But assuming people lie because it furthers a political agenda is no better than lying about gays being immoral or claiming they are mentally ill.

I can speculate all day. But to post a list of "queer" saints based solely on that speculation is to dismiss the lives those people led. And I think that is just as wrong as dismissing a person's life because they are back, hispanic or gay.
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Well, we disagree, don't we. I guess we can do that.
 
poet said:
Right. And given the dismissal of women, even today, rabble and countrymen were going to follow around a girl, in whom they saw femininity, not strength, conviction and the fearlessness of a male warrior.
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Wearing armor in battle was acceptable. It was her wearing men's clothing in court that was not acceptable.
 
poet said:
You missed the point. Denial is not a river over in Egypt.
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No, it is you that missed the point. Your proclamations and defense of the article are equivalent to DY's non-stop condemnations of gays. You are basing your accusations on your desire for them to be true. They are not based on any sort of evidence. At least none that I have seen you produce thus far.
 
poet said:
Hey, if 3 independent people said you did "it", you did it. And if Cardinal Newman was rumored to have been gay, and wanted to be buried with his best and closest friend, it's a duck.
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You're an idiot and that's kind of an insult to idiots.
 
poet said:
Don't take issue with me...take issue with the author of the article found at Huff Post. If you had gone to the link, each saint listed has a "write up" alluding to the viewpoint. Damn.
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It's an OP-ED piece you idiot.
Are you aware that scientists can prove that bumble bees are to large to fly, in relationship to their wing size?
 
poet said:
Right. And given the dismissal of women, even today, rabble and countrymen were going to follow around a girl, in whom they saw femininity, not strength, conviction and the fearlessness of a male warrior.
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They also believed that she had been chosen by God.
Faith can move a mountain.
 
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