However, if you make a stew and leave it simmering, then somebody comes along and adds Garlic, a pound of salt, three eggs and a munchkin you can't blame the outcome on you just because you started the stew.
More Troops, Less Troops, or.... Both?
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
- Start date
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
If you create a debacle, and then someone else takes over, you can't blame them for causing the debacle.
I understand this, but I can blame them for not doing anything to fix the debacle, especially if that is why they were elected. We are having a debate about how to proceed in Iraq, what to do about the problem now, and what is the best approach to take in this situation. Reverting back to "Blame Bush" mode, is not going to solve anything, it's totally unproductive.
Bush certainly has to live with the fact he started the war, but Democrats will have to live with the fact they supported the war and funded it. The "blame game" is over now, and we are discussing what to do, to solve the problem. Democrats were elected to power, to present their ideas and solutions, not to continue blaming and bitching. If you guys have no ideas or solutions, keep yammering about the past, and things we can't do a damn thing about, and soon you will be relegated back to minority status again. It makes no difference to me.
I understand this, but I can blame them for not doing anything to fix the debacle, especially if that is why they were elected. We are having a debate about how to proceed in Iraq, what to do about the problem now, and what is the best approach to take in this situation. Reverting back to "Blame Bush" mode, is not going to solve anything, it's totally unproductive.
Bush certainly has to live with the fact he started the war, but Democrats will have to live with the fact they supported the war and funded it. The "blame game" is over now, and we are discussing what to do, to solve the problem. Democrats were elected to power, to present their ideas and solutions, not to continue blaming and bitching. If you guys have no ideas or solutions, keep yammering about the past, and things we can't do a damn thing about, and soon you will be relegated back to minority status again. It makes no difference to me.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
However, if you make a stew and leave it simmering, then somebody comes along and adds Garlic, a pound of salt, three eggs and a munchkin you can't blame the outcome on you just because you started the stew.
Who's been adding things?
The stew has simply nominally changed hands, in reality, the original chef is still in charge.....
Who's been adding things?
The stew has simply nominally changed hands, in reality, the original chef is still in charge.....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
So, it is your position that we don't have an obligation to stand with our allies against outside influences who want democracy to fail in Iraq? Is this what you are saying? I just want to be clear on it.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
but I can blame them for not doing anything to fix the debacle, especially if that is why they were elected.
How long ago was the election ?
How long has Bush had to create the mess?
How long ago was the election ?
How long has Bush had to create the mess?
So, it is your position that we don't have an obligation to stand with our allies against outside influences
but why does it require the volatilizing presence of 150,000 american combat troops? You yourself said for years, that there's only a few thousand insurgents with little popular support in the country. And there's now 300,000 trained iraqi security forces.
We didn't have to send american combat troops to support the El Salvadoran goverment against a communist insurgency - we helped them with training and logistics. A large american troop presence in el salvador would have inflamed the situation. Ronald Reagan understood this - why can't you?
Until January. Pretending that those who add to the recipe will have no culpability is simply wishing for fishes...
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
The point is this, in case you missed it... Democrats can't simply sit and lob shit bombs at Bush anymore. They control Congress, they control funding of the war, they control whether we leave or stay. Blaming Bush for getting us into Iraq, is NOT a solution to the situation in Iraq, it wasn't a solution when you won an election on the issue, and it will not be a solution in the next 2 years.
The daily posting of death tolls is not solving the problem, it's continuing the 'blame game' and doing everything to avoid addressing the problem. With Democrats in full control of how this war is prosecuted, you can't make a legitimate complaint about the daily death tolls, the Democrats have the power to end it with the stroke of a pen. Is that the "best solution" to this problem? Is that what Democrats think? Go for it! Just remember, if you break it, you bought it.
"Democrats were elected to power, to present their ideas and solutions, not to continue blaming and bitching. If you guys have no ideas or solutions, keep yammering about the past, and things we can't do a damn thing about, and soon you will be relegated back to minority status again. It makes no difference to me."
Wrong (again). We can bitch all we want. The voters don't expect anything from anonymous internet message board posters.
The Dems who were elected, however, HAVE presented solutions, including redeployment & partitioning, among other ideas. I haven't heard any mainstream Dems in Congress "Bash Bush" on this topic since election day; if you have really listened - and you haven't - you would know that they are talking about it in a constructive way.
As far as ol' Onceler is concerned, however, I am able to chew gum & walk at the same time (again, not that it matters to voters). I can talk about the solutions that I support, and continue to bash the hell out of both you & Bush for putting us in this predicament, in such a careless & partisan way. We did, after all, tell you pretty much what would happen, and we were right. You just didn't listen (much like you are not listening now...)
Wrong (again). We can bitch all we want. The voters don't expect anything from anonymous internet message board posters.
The Dems who were elected, however, HAVE presented solutions, including redeployment & partitioning, among other ideas. I haven't heard any mainstream Dems in Congress "Bash Bush" on this topic since election day; if you have really listened - and you haven't - you would know that they are talking about it in a constructive way.
As far as ol' Onceler is concerned, however, I am able to chew gum & walk at the same time (again, not that it matters to voters). I can talk about the solutions that I support, and continue to bash the hell out of both you & Bush for putting us in this predicament, in such a careless & partisan way. We did, after all, tell you pretty much what would happen, and we were right. You just didn't listen (much like you are not listening now...)
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
The daily posting of death tolls is not solving the problem, it's continuing the 'blame game' and doing everything to avoid addressing the problem.
The Democrats should be expected to find a solution.
But that doesn't detract from the fact that Bush and his regime deserve blame for the debacle that they have been created.
Simply passing the buck to the democrats shouldn't let Bush off the hook for what he has caused.
He should be hounded until it is officially investigated and sanctions are brought against him.
The Democrats should be expected to find a solution.
But that doesn't detract from the fact that Bush and his regime deserve blame for the debacle that they have been created.
Simply passing the buck to the democrats shouldn't let Bush off the hook for what he has caused.
He should be hounded until it is officially investigated and sanctions are brought against him.
You have yet to take responsiblity for your monumental fuck up, and apologize for it. You spent years calling everyone who oppossed your war, nitwits, pinheads, and traitors.
Once you fess and apologize for your total fuck up, you'll probably see less posts impeaching your credibility on the issue (as MM said) and pointing out how disasterously wrong you've been time after time.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Prissy, I have no intentions of apologizing, I have nothing to apologize for. I think taking out Saddam was the right thing to do, and planting Democracy in the heart of Islamic radicalism, is a legitimate way to undermine their evil ideology. You and I have two completely different views on Iraq, so I feel no need to apologize to you or anyone else, and will not be doing so.
The issue today, is what to do now in Iraq. Your party was elected to do something, I am not sure what that is, and I am trying to find out. So far, it seems that you think your party was elected to continue bitching and complaining about things that are academic. I don't think that is what America had in mind, and I don't see how that solves the problems in Iraq.
This is almost like the Democrats didn't expect to win, they have no plan for what to do now. It's almost comical, if it weren't so serious. Try to understand, before the elections, you made a valid and legitimate argument, that the "debacle" in Iraq was something you had no control over and couldn't do a thing about, since you had no power. Oh, you played this up, it's terrible, awful, 'worst debacle in history', and we are powerless to do a thing about it...Bush and Republicans hold all the power! Well... You've been given enormous power, the entire Congress of the United States.... now, you don't seem to know what to do, except sit in the corner repeating yourself, and trying to make the same argument continue to work, when it doesn't.
The issue today, is what to do now in Iraq. Your party was elected to do something, I am not sure what that is, and I am trying to find out. So far, it seems that you think your party was elected to continue bitching and complaining about things that are academic. I don't think that is what America had in mind, and I don't see how that solves the problems in Iraq.
This is almost like the Democrats didn't expect to win, they have no plan for what to do now. It's almost comical, if it weren't so serious. Try to understand, before the elections, you made a valid and legitimate argument, that the "debacle" in Iraq was something you had no control over and couldn't do a thing about, since you had no power. Oh, you played this up, it's terrible, awful, 'worst debacle in history', and we are powerless to do a thing about it...Bush and Republicans hold all the power! Well... You've been given enormous power, the entire Congress of the United States.... now, you don't seem to know what to do, except sit in the corner repeating yourself, and trying to make the same argument continue to work, when it doesn't.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
Not capable of taking responsibility for strategies that have failed miserably based on massively flawed strategic thinking that you supported?
DIXIE: "This is almost like the Democrats didn't expect to win, they have no plan for what to do now.....The issue today, is what to do now in Iraq. Your party was elected to do something, I am not sure what that is, and I am trying to find out.
Here ya go:
Democratic Plans for Iraq:
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/articles/newsarticle.html?id=11
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/16/us.iraqresolution/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/23/AR2006082301419_pf.html
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...0/democrats_may_unite_on_plan_to_pull_troops/
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5013535
http://securingamerica.com/
http://fullpolitics.com/viewthread.php?tid=14465#pid338142
http://www.dccc.org/stakeholder/archives/003914.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12062280/
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
It's not only, "The Democrats should be expected to find a solution", they were elected to power to find a solution. Bush drug us into an illegal war for oil! IS NOT A SOLUTION!
No one is "passing the buck" on anything, we are all Americans, and this war involves all Americans. I'm interested in what is the best thing to do, and how to proceed in Iraq, how to leave Iraq with honor, pride, and victory, and a better place than we found it, and from what I've read about Saddam, that shouldn't be too difficult.
I'm interested in America promoting and supporting Democracy against forces of Anti-Democracy, and I don't think we should EVER take a "neutral" stance on that. I particularly don't think we should be 'shamed' by Socialists into taking a "neutral" stance on it, and regardless of the circumstance or consequences, I stand up for this belief, and I stand with our allies who share this belief, and I believe my country should do the same.
Much has been learned in this old thread. We've established Iraq is not a simple Black/White conflict of internal concern and nature, it is complex and intricate, there are many factions at play, and many outside players in the game, and "simplistic answers" are not going to ultimately solve the problem.
We have realized some truisms, that it's more beneficial to leave Iraq with a sense of a win instead of a loss, and that cutting the outside sources which aid the insurgents, will eventually diminish the insurgent movement, thus ending the insurgent problem. There has even been some credible debate about training forces outside of Iraq, involving the neighbors more diplomatically, etc... THESE are things we can discuss and work together on, because they are productive and viable ways to effect a "change in Iraq". The shrill left-wing Blame Bush rhetoric, is not productive in any way at this point, and shows a complete lack of ability to lead.
You can choose to take a path to "investigating the president" and ultimately to impeachment, if that is what you think is the "right thing to do" for America. As experience would have it, it's best you know for certain, what America thinks about it, first.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Prissy, I appreciate that you apparently have no life, and find the time to compile these databases of information to post, in order to make yourself appear to be a genius amongst mere mortals. I have heard and read every proposal from Democrats, and very few of them, if any, contain any real detail of anything we aren't currently doing or trying to do in Iraq, or they are completely out of the realm of possibility. Most of them are simply full of platitudes, empty-ended statements, which do not define any sort of plan, other than to leave and tuck our tails between our legs when we do.
Prissy, the grown ups are talking here, we know you need attention, but go look for IH8 to play with or something... where is your sister, Desh?
Prissy, the grown ups are talking here, we know you need attention, but go look for IH8 to play with or something... where is your sister, Desh?
"Well... You've been given enormous power, the entire Congress of the United States.... now, you don't seem to know what to do, except sit in the corner repeating yourself, and trying to make the same argument continue to work, when it doesn't."
Gee...way to give it the full 2 weeks (which were pretty much chock full of public discussions on the various options for Iraq) before rendering judgment.
You're such a fool. Nothing to apologize for? Are you aware that the Iraq health minister acknowledged today that it's very possible that the Iraqi civilian casualty toll was over 150,000? Can you even begin to comprehend the human suffering you & yours have caused?
Your arrogance & callousness about this is overwhelming. You no longer qualify as a human being....
Gee...way to give it the full 2 weeks (which were pretty much chock full of public discussions on the various options for Iraq) before rendering judgment.
You're such a fool. Nothing to apologize for? Are you aware that the Iraq health minister acknowledged today that it's very possible that the Iraqi civilian casualty toll was over 150,000? Can you even begin to comprehend the human suffering you & yours have caused?
Your arrogance & callousness about this is overwhelming. You no longer qualify as a human being....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
LOL... Thanks for giving me an update for DPQM. This one will probably stick through the holidays, so you should feel honored!
Here's what I'm aware of, Skippy... Democrats won control of Congress, and what happens in Iraq NOW, is as much Democrats responsibility as anyone else. To pretend you are still without power, and relegated to bashing incessantly on Bush, you are failing to drive the car you so adamantly wanted the keys to! America expects leadership, not more bitching, griping, and complaining! You were given control of Congress for that very reason, and if you fail to realize it or pretend that is not the case, you are delusional.
Subsequently, if you think that the solution to Iraq, is to just throw up our hands and withdraw in disgrace, it ain't going to happen, for the reasons we've discussed in this very thread. If you care to engage in the debate, feel free to join us anytime! Withdrawing back into the pre-election mode of being powerless victims, is not going to work for you now.
"If you care to engage in the debate, feel free to join us anytime! "
Oh, I engage in debate. Just not with you; you I will continue to bash relentlessly, for your part in getting us to this point.
And as you so eloquently pointed out after the '04 election, the views of the minority are now irrelevant. The American voters voted you out, and now your opinions don't matter.
Since your opinions no longer matter, you really should spend a little bit of time LISTENING. As I have said multiple times on this thread, the past 2 weeks has seen more public discussion about different options in Iraq than we have seen in 3 years under 1-party rule. Your problem is that you equate a handful of anonymous internet message board posters with the U.S. Congress.
Do you even read or watch the news?
Oh, I engage in debate. Just not with you; you I will continue to bash relentlessly, for your part in getting us to this point.
And as you so eloquently pointed out after the '04 election, the views of the minority are now irrelevant. The American voters voted you out, and now your opinions don't matter.
Since your opinions no longer matter, you really should spend a little bit of time LISTENING. As I have said multiple times on this thread, the past 2 weeks has seen more public discussion about different options in Iraq than we have seen in 3 years under 1-party rule. Your problem is that you equate a handful of anonymous internet message board posters with the U.S. Congress.
Do you even read or watch the news?
Bush and Dixie have already driven the car over the edge of the cliff. The only option now is to either crash and burn, or try to bring it into a controlled crash-landing.
Therefore, a more apt analogy is that Bush cooked and served us what he promised to be a gourment meal. But it was a meal that turned out to be totally foul and unpalatable. And we're left deciding whether to order some crappy delivery pizza or chinese take-out.